The vaccine

[Arborbridge]

the point about it is, as you and others have mentioned, that this is a walk through populated well lit roads. One would not say she had taken a big risk and I hope no one will try to argue that she was irresponsible to do it - it ought to be a normal thing to do if one wants to.

I thought the kids all took Uber these days, although I suppose you still have to worry about being alone in a car with a stranger.

I agree walking this route should have been fine, although I'm not sure about Clapham Common after dark, not knowing South London that well. One of my children lives in East Dulwich and he doesn't worry about the neighbourhood at night. But then again he is 6 foot 3. These days I am more wary about being out alone at night unless there are a lot of people about, but 30 years ago I had no fear.

We all take some care and have some fear when out at night in a town, but in "my day" I think the fear for a young man was being mugged. Usually the worst that would happen was losing your wallet. Now, lads are at greater risk of being stabbed than I was, and women must have much greater fears.


Arb.

[Arborbridge]

I thought the kids all took Uber these days, although I suppose you still have to worry about being alone in a car with a stranger.

Indeed - uber does not have an unblemished reputation.

[gryffron]

What seems a little strange here is that they were all "health workers". I wonder why that should be? Have we any more details?

I'm only guessing, but maybe health workers are the ONLY people being vaccinated in Norway atm. Or at least, the bulk of them. Hence why they're the people getting side effects. They have been prioritised in many countries.

Gryff

[Bouleversee]

Interesting that the French are only permitting the AZN vaccine to be given to over 55s. Not sure of the rationale for that other than they have already had a bigger chunk of life.

I have heard conflicting reports as to whether there have been more or fewer cases of clotting with the Pfizer. Anyone have anything solid on that? I still don't know whether a genetic pro-thrombin factor could increase risk so worth trying to get Pfizer rather than AZN.

[scrumpyjack]

Interesting that the French are only permitting the AZN vaccine to be given to over 55s. Not sure of the rationale for that other than they have already had a bigger chunk of life.

I have heard conflicting reports as to whether there have been more or fewer cases of clotting with the Pfizer. Anyone have anything solid on that? I still don't know whether a genetic pro-thrombin factor could increase risk so worth trying to get Pfizer rather than AZN.

Apparently most of the 'suspicious' clotting cases were of younger people. I guess that is why they will use AZN on older people and Pfizer etc on younger people. What they do when they discover there had been as many clotting cases with the other vaccines, I don't know!

[Arborbridge]

Interesting that the French are only permitting the AZN vaccine to be given to over 55s. Not sure of the rationale for that other than they have already had a bigger chunk of life.

I have heard conflicting reports as to whether there have been more or fewer cases of clotting with the Pfizer. Anyone have anything solid on that? I still don't know whether a genetic pro-thrombin factor could increase risk so worth trying to get Pfizer rather than AZN.

There have been opinons expressed that there could be greater blood clot risks under that age, that's why they have restricted it. It might also be a fig leaf to save their embarassment by saying the were partially right.

Arb.

[feder1]

Is the blood condition Factor V Leiden relevant here?

[Arborbridge]

Is the blood condition Factor V Leiden relevant here?

Leiden is a university town. Did you van der Leyen? If so, her officials have supported the AZN vaccine and given it a clean bill of health. Some countries decided unilaterally to apply the precautionary principle and wait for a re-assessment in the light of recent deaths due to blood clots.

I believe many europeans would approve of this approach, but in any case it wasn't anything to do with U van L or the EU.

Arb.

[Lootman]

The NY Times seems to think the UK's policy of delaying the second jab works, overall:

"Britain appears to have landed on the most effective vaccination strategy."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/19/brie ... vogue.html

[Bouleversee]

Interesting that the French are only permitting the AZN vaccine to be given to over 55s. Not sure of the rationale for that other than they have already had a bigger chunk of life.

I have heard conflicting reports as to whether there have been more or fewer cases of clotting with the Pfizer. Anyone have anything solid on that? I still don't know whether a genetic pro-thrombin factor could increase risk so worth trying to get Pfizer rather than AZN.

There have been opinons expressed that there could be greater blood clot risks under that age, that's why they have restricted it. It might also be a fig leaf to save their embarassment by saying the were partially right.

Arb.

I find that hard to believe. More likely that they know they are going to run out of vaccine before they get to the younger ones.

[Bouleversee]

Is the blood condition Factor V Leiden relevant here?

It might be; that's what I'm trying to find out. That was one of my husband's inherited pro-thrombin factors; the other was Factor 11 Heterozygous. My adult sprogs have only inherited the latter. I am trying to find out whether that tendency to clotting should be taken into consideration in the context of the vaccine. I think they do ask you if you are on a blood thinning medication but someone suggested they only ask that in case you start bleeding when you get the jab. My children are not but then although the condition is on their records from way back, their blood is never tested or referred to. I have tried to get someone to ask the question on the BBC vaccine programme but no luck so far. If you discover anything, please let us know. My daughter is in the age group currently being offered jabs and is dithering till she finds out more. The centres don't seem to tell you when you book what vaccine you will get.

[Julian]

Is the blood condition Factor V Leiden relevant here?

It might be; that's what I'm trying to find out. That was one of my husband's inherited pro-thrombin factors; the other was Factor 11 Heterozygous. My adult sprogs have only inherited the latter. I am trying to find out whether that tendency to clotting should be taken into consideration in the context of the vaccine. I think they do ask you if you are on a blood thinning medication but someone suggested they only ask that in case you start bleeding when you get the jab. My children are not but then although the condition is on their records from way back, their blood is never tested or referred to. I have tried to get someone to ask the question on the BBC vaccine programme but no luck so far. If you discover anything, please let us know. My daughter is in the age group currently being offered jabs and is dithering till she finds out more. The centres don't seem to tell you when you book what vaccine you will get.

There are two primary documents that must be available and approved as part of the regulatory process and updated as appropriate, they are the “Patient Information Leaflet”, referred to as the “PIL” in the pharma industry that in OTC or prescription meds is the paper insert that goes in the box and might be thought of in general consumer parlance as the “user guide, and the other document is the “Summary of Product Characteristics”, the “SPC” that might be thought of in consumer terms as the “service manual” or “installers guide” since it is aimed at medical professionals. I’m afraid I couldn’t remember the cryptic name for the Pfizer vaccine which I think is the one of interest to you but the name for the AZ vaccine is more obvious (“ChAdOx1”) so I found the SPC for that very easily and it says...

As with other intramuscular injections, the vaccine should be given with caution in individuals receiving anticoagulant therapy or those with thrombocytopenia or any coagulation disorder (such as haemophilia) because bleeding or bruising may occur following an intramuscular administration in these individuals.

[ Source: https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/ ... .pdf#page3 ]

I suspect the questions at the vaccination centre about blood thinners are related to that generic caution in the SPC where I suspect the SPC for the Pfizer vaccine has similar or identical wording. Searching for the equivalent SPC for the Pfizer vaccine might give you more info. The gobbledygook name for the Pfizer vaccine is I think “BN” or maybe “BNT” followed by some numeric identifier and it has been mentioned a few times in a few reports so it shouldn’t be too difficult to find, or maybe some helpful person can provide it, at which point you should be able to quite easily find the Pfizer SPC online to see if that has anything extra about blood condition related contraindications but as mentioned I suspect it currently doesn’t.

- Julian

[jfgw]

I’m afraid I couldn’t remember the cryptic name for the Pfizer vaccine...

BNT162b2


Cheers,

Julian F. G. W.

[Julian]

I’m afraid I couldn’t remember the cryptic name for the Pfizer vaccine...

BNT162b2


Cheers,

Julian F. G. W.

Thanks Julian.

Here’s the SPC with essentially the same caveat as I quoted from the AZ SPC...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _0_UK_.pdf

Of course these things can get updated. There’s probably a live database somewhere that I don’t know about.

- (another) Julian

[monabri]

It is reported in The Telegraph that Pfizer have warned the EU that the delivery of the Pfizer Biontec vaccine is dependent on them receiving a crucial material from Croda in Yorkshire. If the EU withholds vaccines then the UK might withhold supplies from Croda in retaliation.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... de-threat/

[88V8]

...delivery of the Pfizer Biontec vaccine is dependent on them receiving a crucial material from Croda in Yorkshire. If the EU withholds vaccines then the UK might withhold supplies from Croda in retaliation.

And I heard on the wireless that the Moderna vaccine we have ordered will be vialled in Spain. Will it then be ambushed by the EU...

What seems to have been forgotten by the EU at the outset, is that politicians are elected in National elections, and many electorates will be well peed off by the current fiasco.
Vaccine nationalism? Like in India? Of course!!!!

In the UK, we really should have our own capacity to make & pack vaccines from start to finish, without depending on a supply chain that evaporates when push comes to shove.
Easily said of course, someone has to pay for capex that may stand largely idle for long periods.

V8

[gryffron]

Easily said of course, someone has to pay for capex that may stand largely idle for long periods.

Actually unlikely. If a govt with deep pockets guarantees its operation, then it can tender for work at less than cost price. Thus driving all its commercial competitors out of the market. Whether that is desirable depends on your viewpoint. Certainly against EU competition and govt assistance rules, and they're unlikely to want a trade deal with someone engaged in such unfair practices.

A more likely problem I see is that whilst a few things are obvious (PPE,needles,little bottles) maintaining all the steps in the supply chain is very hard. For example Pfizer and Moderna's MRNA vaccines have NEVER been produced until recently. So who knew what chemicals they would require? How many had heard of Croda before?

The EU threatening to seize goods and breach other's patents is just bluster and insanity. They have MUCH more to lose by such behaviour than most other countries/blocs.

Gryff

[PinkDalek]

How many had heard of Croda before?

As you asked and assuming that is Croda International plc, I have for a variety of reasons, not least they are listed.

https://www.londonstockexchange.com/sto ... ge?lang=en

[Lootman]

How many had heard of Croda before?

As you asked and assuming that is Croda International plc, I have for a variety of reasons, not least they are listed.

https://www.londonstockexchange.com/sto ... ge?lang=en

Indeed, I have owned it for a few years. I cannot recall what originally brought it to my attention, but it has done well. As a chemicals company I did not realise it would have a hand in vaccines.

[XFool]

the obvious and observable fact that many who wanted Brexit were fanatical about it.

I would suggest that there are a number of Remainers here who are equally fanatical as well.

Would you?

That's the thing with divisive issues. Whichever side you are on, the other side seem like fanatics.

Umm... I'm not entirely convinced.

I would like to reply at some length however, to try and avoid the risk of getting 'cancelled', I will answer as briefly as I can.

Everyone surely knows the EU vaccine procurement has proved inadequate. It has even been reported as such by the 'Left wing biased, EU propagandising BBC.' Criticism on these lines makes sense, based on facts. But that wasn't enough for the EU bashers.

When several European nation states, some in the EU and some not, exercised their sovereign rights by suspending the use of the AZN vaccine - against the express recommendation of the EU body concerned - even this was listed by some as further evidence in the long list of alleged 'Crimes of the EU'. That is what I mean by fanaticism.