The vaccine

[redsturgeon]

Potentially disastrous news for AZ

https://sciencenorway.no/covid19/norweg ... ne/1830510

Norwegian scientists say AZ vaccine was responsible for blood clots in three relatively young healthcare workers.

John

[Bouleversee]

Interesting that she's getting her 2nd Pfizer jab after 6 weeks when govt. instructions were given to delay it till 12 weeks. Mine was also a little sooner than I was told it would be after the first 3 week one was cancelled. So have they decided to take note of Pfizer/BioNTech max. recommended interval after all, but too late for some? Or is local policy over-riding national policy? Or is it just expediency, to make sure all 2nd jabs are out of the way before they start on the age 50 group?

I should be interested to know how soon others get their 2nd Pfizer jabs.

It may be a bit nit-picking but the instruction was to delay up to 12 weeks. So it could be sooner but not later than. My wife was able to book her second jab 10 weeks after the first.

The original advice was that the 2nd Pfizer dose should be given at the end of 3 weeks. The letter I received from my local primary care network following the cancellation of my 2nd appointment said that the NEW advice from the UK Chief Medical Officers was that the second dose remains effective when given up to 12 weeks after the first dose and should be given towards the end of this l2-week period, as you say, so I wondered why Jackdaww's wife had been given hers after only 6 weeks, as I understand his message to mean. There have, after all, been various studies suggesting that quite a lot of old people and people with underlying health conditions, eg. cancer, do not produce sufficient (or in some cases any) antibodies after one dose. However, it could simply be that they have spare capacity and spare vaccine and want to get on with the job so they are ready to start on the under fifties until supplies run out and hopefully more are delivered before then.

Post scrip: Having just read the preceding post, the real reason could be that they were anticipating this which throws a large spanner in the works.

[XFool]

Potentially disastrous news for AZ

https://sciencenorway.no/covid19/norweg ... ne/1830510

Norwegian scientists say AZ vaccine was responsible for blood clots in three relatively young healthcare workers.

John

Oh dear. OTOH, bad reactions do occur rarely but sometimes with vaccinations. What seems a little strange here is that they were all "health workers". I wonder why that should be? Have we any more details?

[Bouleversee]

Didn't Hancock mention something about a question over the viability of a batch of an AZN vaccine this morning?

[Arborbridge]

Quite some years ago we took a cruise down the Rhine, joining at Basle and disembarking at Rotterdam I think. In these days I did not know Europe very well, spending most of my working life in the Far East. It was a great trip so I hope you enjoy it too. I usually agree with Snorvey but this time I do not quite because it is to me very important that the EU citizens get the jab as well, considering all the links we have with Continental Europe. However, I dislike their politics, and for them to consider setting aside contractual obligations of their manufacturing facility would be quite wrong, if indeed that is what they are contemplating. That is how it is reported in the Times this morning.

Dod

Like you I usually agree with Snorvey, but not this time. The cruise you enjoyed, sounds the same as the one we have booked, except that we are going Basel to Amsterdam - if it happens!

As regards whether what the EU is doing is "quite wrong" depends on ones standpoint. Legally, may be - certainly if there specific contracts they are breaking (but we also have form on that when it suits us!) - but the EU's first responsibility is to its citizens, so if by safeguarding their own supplies they are doing that, one could argue they what they are doing is "quite right".
I understand that the US either is or has sugggested it might, limit supplies too in order the safeguard its own population. Since some of the component parts in the supply chain are made in the US, this could also limit production around the world. In short, it isn't only the EU who are in the business of making radical decisions to look after their own - so is the US, India and the UK.
So, I would ask that we don't just heap blame on the EU alone - my feeling is that this is only done because dislike of that institutions is rife amongst some UK commentators, and we ought really to try to maintain and even perspective. As always in business, this means taking the other person's perspective into consideration. Personally, I like to see these various actions from all sides on, nd not just jump to conclusions.

As the Finnish ex-PM said today, in an desparate situation, politicians are apt to make rash decisions: what we should do is look to the near term when the inbalance between Europe and the UK injection success will be much less pronounced. Work towards that, and the problem goes away.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

Didn't Hancock mention something about a question over the viability of a batch of an AZN vaccine this morning?

He said 1.7 million dose had been delayed due to a testing problem, but no more than that, I think.

Only caught a few words on BBC with half an ear, so I might be wrong.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

Potentially disastrous news for AZ

https://sciencenorway.no/covid19/norweg ... ne/1830510

Norwegian scientists say AZ vaccine was responsible for blood clots in three relatively young healthcare workers.

John

Oh dear. OTOH, bad reactions do occur rarely but sometimes with vaccinations. What seems a little strange here is that they were all "health workers". I wonder why that should be? Have we any more details?

Not good. Too individuals, this is quite scary. However, from a public health POV different considerations come into play: it will still be better to have a few deaths from side-effects than many deaths from covid.

As an aside, it occurred to me that Sarah Everard was - in effect- a covid death once removed. Many such will occur which do not have covid on the certificate.

Arb.

[Julian]

Potentially disastrous news for AZ

https://sciencenorway.no/covid19/norweg ... ne/1830510

Norwegian scientists say AZ vaccine was responsible for blood clots in three relatively young healthcare workers.

John

Oh dear. OTOH, bad reactions do occur rarely but sometimes with vaccinations. What seems a little strange here is that they were all "health workers". I wonder why that should be? Have we any more details?

Maybe just because of the order they were working through the different groups and it taking longer for each group due to slower rollout, if indeed Denmark has been having a slow rollout? It might also support a theory that it might be a batch-specific purity issue if that was the particular batch being deployed as they were working their way through the healthcare worker group.

- Julian.

[swill453]

As an aside, it occurred to me that Sarah Everard was - in effect- a covid death once removed. Many such will occur which do not have covid on the certificate.

What's the link with Covid?

Scott.

[Julian]

Oh dear. OTOH, bad reactions do occur rarely but sometimes with vaccinations. What seems a little strange here is that they were all "health workers". I wonder why that should be? Have we any more details?

Not good. Too individuals, this is quite scary. However, from a public health POV different considerations come into play: it will still be better to have a few deaths from side-effects than many deaths from covid.
...

The trouble is that I can see the potential for it to cause a fair bit of mayhem because, while you are of course correct, it’s a reasonably nuanced message to get through to the public and I’m afraid that from some of the nonsense I’ve seen during this pandemic (not on this forum I hasten to add) my opinion of the ability of at least a portion of the public to absorb nuanced messages has only got worse.

While it is true that, even if a generic (as in not batch-specific) causal risk is identified it is still a viable vaccine if for most or all age groups that risk is far lower than the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from Covid, I can imagine some people thinking “well, my risk from Covid-19 is X and my risk from an AZ side effect is Y and Y is a lot lower than X so getting vaccinated makes sense but then again, I haven’t seen anything about potentially fatal side effects from the Pfizer vaccine so why even expose myself to that Y risk when I perceive the Pfizer risk as being lower? I’m going to insist on the Pfizer vaccine and if they won’t tell me what I’m getting when I book I might just turn up anyway and then refuse to go ahead if they tell me I’m getting the AZ vaccine”.

I really hope we don’t end up at a point where we start seeing too much of the above behaviour because it could cause a fair amount of mayhem at vaccination centres but I can see it as a definite possibility.

- Julian

[XFool]

As an aside, it occurred to me that Sarah Everard was - in effect- a covid death once removed. Many such will occur which do not have covid on the certificate.

What's the link with Covid?

Scott.

Transport? (She walked)

[Arborbridge]

As an aside, it occurred to me that Sarah Everard was - in effect- a covid death once removed. Many such will occur which do not have covid on the certificate.

What's the link with Covid?

Scott.

I'm glad you asked me that

She decided to walk home a long way - in fact a 50 minute walk, not trivial by any means and not something you would normally do. This struck me as unusual, but then I heard a comment that she may have decided to do this as an alternative to taking a bus due to her fear of catching covid. Faced with the decision to risk covid (and incidentally, I've been on bus journeys in London and find that people have not worn masks, talk loudly on phones without masks for whole journeys, and others sneezing without inhibition) or a walk home she chose the latter. I have done exactly the same - avoided the bus for the same reason, and taken a half hour walk, in my case. Their will be hundreds of people having to make similar decisions about which particular risk they prefer - necessitated due to covid.

That's why I said it was "in effect" a covid death once removed. Not directly Covid, but the fateful decision may have been made due to covid.

Arb.

[swill453]

That's why I said it was "in effect" a covid death once removed. Not directly Covid, but the fateful decision may have been made due to covid.

Maybe, who knows. Maybe she always walked.

On the other hand, maybe Covid should have saved her? Presumably she was breaking the rules by visiting her friend in the first place?

Scott.

[XFool]

AstraZeneca: UK clot review confirms safety of vaccine

BBC News

There is no evidence the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine causes blood clots, the UK's medicines regulator says after a "thorough and careful review".

"The MHRA says people can have confidence in the vaccine's benefits and should get immunised when invited, despite some countries suspending use.

But anyone with a headache lasting more than four days after vaccination should seek medical advice, as a precaution.

The same advice applies if someone develops unusual bruising, it says.

That is because the MHRA has received a very small number of reports of an extremely rare form of blood clot occurring in the brain."

[XFool]

OK. EMA has made announcement.

On evidence available etc. cannot rule out link to vaccine and blood clots. But, still recommending AZN vaccine as safe and effective.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/events/pre ... lic-events

Not broadcasting at this time (17:17 CET)

[Arborbridge]

That's why I said it was "in effect" a covid death once removed. Not directly Covid, but the fateful decision may have been made due to covid.

Maybe, who knows. Maybe she always walked.

On the other hand, maybe Covid should have saved her? Presumably she was breaking the rules by visiting her friend in the first place?

Scott.

Unlikely that any women would choose to embark on a 50 minute walk home at that time of the evening without good cause. That's what popped out as being unusual. It's theoretically possible, but I find it scarcely believable.

Whether she was breaking the rules, we don't know, but is irrelevant to my argument.

[dealtn]

Maybe, who knows. Maybe she always walked.

On the other hand, maybe Covid should have saved her? Presumably she was breaking the rules by visiting her friend in the first place?

Scott.

Unlikely that any women would choose to embark on a 50 minute walk home at that time of the evening without good cause. That's what popped out as being unusual. It's theoretically possible, but I find it scarcely believable.

Whether she was breaking the rules, we don't know, but is irrelevant to my argument.

Clapham Junction to Brixton Hill is about a 3 mile walk in mostly populated and well lit areas, which for a 30ish year old at 9-30 pm isn't "scarcely believable" she walked to me. Many might choose a bus or taxi, many might not.

[Arborbridge]

Unlikely that any women would choose to embark on a 50 minute walk home at that time of the evening without good cause. That's what popped out as being unusual. It's theoretically possible, but I find it scarcely believable.

Whether she was breaking the rules, we don't know, but is irrelevant to my argument.

Clapham Junction to Brixton Hill is about a 3 mile walk in mostly populated and well lit areas, which for a 30ish year old at 9-30 pm isn't "scarcely believable" she walked to me. Many might choose a bus or taxi, many might not.

3 miles is around an hour, maybe more - certainly more for the 30 year olds I know, unless jogging. I'm afraid we'll have to disagree, not that that amounts to much
But the point about it is, as you and others have mentioned, that this is a walk through populated well lit roads. One would not say she had taken a big risk and I hope no one will try to argue that she was irresponsible to do it - it ought to be a normal thing to do if one wants to.

Arb.

[Lootman]

the point about it is, as you and others have mentioned, that this is a walk through populated well lit roads. One would not say she had taken a big risk and I hope no one will try to argue that she was irresponsible to do it - it ought to be a normal thing to do if one wants to.

I thought the kids all took Uber these days, although I suppose you still have to worry about being alone in a car with a stranger.

I agree walking this route should have been fine, although I'm not sure about Clapham Common after dark, not knowing South London that well. One of my children lives in East Dulwich and he doesn't worry about the neighbourhood at night. But then again he is 6 foot 3. These days I am more wary about being out alone at night unless there are a lot of people about, but 30 years ago I had no fear.

[swill453]

I agree walking this route should have been fine, although I'm not sure about Clapham Common after dark, not knowing South London that well. One of my children lives in East Dulwich and he doesn't worry about the neighbourhood at night. But then again he is 6 foot 3. These days I am more wary about being out alone at night unless there are a lot of people about, but 30 years ago I had no fear.

It was said that her most likely route was a well-used, well-lit pavement on the main road, and not across the common itself.

Scott.