Ticket Touts

[robbelg]

In the news today talking about making it illegal to use automated systems to buy nearly all the tickets for shows and resell for vast profits.

Wouldn't it be easier to print your name and credit card number on the ticket and require you to present the card and photo ID at the ticket barrier?

Or are the venues secretly quite happy with the current system? ( and participate )

[paulnumbers]

Quite why the state needs to get involved I have no idea.

[kiloran]

Quite why the state needs to get involved I have no idea.

Presumably because nobody else appears to be interested in solving the problem.

--kiloran

[paulnumbers]

Quite why the state needs to get involved I have no idea.

Presumably because nobody else appears to be interested in solving the problem.

--kiloran

I can see the argument when football hooligans are involved. But normal events with willing buyers and willing sellers coming together? I don't know what the problem is, but perhaps I'm an unreformed libertarian.

[robbelg]

The problem is that the auto systems gobble up all the tickets in minutes, seconds even, so ordinary punters never get a chance to buy at face value.

[paulnumbers]

The problem is that the auto systems gobble up all the tickets in minutes, seconds even, so ordinary punters never get a chance to buy at face value.

Yes, I understand the problem for "punters", I don't see why the state should be trying to intervene. If a business is not looking after the interests of it's end users, so be it.

https://iea.org.uk/blog/in-defence-of-ticket-touts

[Redmires]

The problem is that the auto systems gobble up all the tickets in minutes, seconds even, so ordinary punters never get a chance to buy at face value.

Yes, I understand the problem for "punters", I don't see why the state should be trying to intervene. If a business is not looking after the interests of it's end users, so be it.

And what if auto systems were developed that bought up all the petrol, loaves of bread, medical supplies etc and sold them on to us at 100x their value ? It's unethical and nothing but legalised robbery. Not for much longer though, although the parasites will probably find a way around it.

[vrdiver]

And what if auto systems were developed that bought up all the petrol, loaves of bread, medical supplies etc and sold them on to us at 100x their value ? It's unethical and nothing but legalised robbery. Not for much longer though, although the parasites will probably find a way around it.

Thing is, it's supply and demand. If there are enough people willing to pay stupid money to see a show, then why shouldn't there be a market in which entrepreneurs buy tickets and resell them? If they've invested in a system to get tickets before everybody else, that's initiative. Essentially they are providing a service for rich people who are too lazy to queue for tickets themselves.

As a "punter" I won't buy a ticket over its face value, but then that's my choice: there are plenty of other things I could do instead if tickets weren't available.

If a medicine was in such short supply that only say, 1% of patients who needed it could get it, do you really think the price would not be raised on a similar scale to concert tickets? Whether the manufacturer or an intermediary gets the margin doesn't really affect the outcome for the patient!

VRD

[UncleEbenezer]

Quite why the state needs to get involved I have no idea.

It's very largely the state that's being short-changed.

"Ticket touts" happen when the market price for something differs from a face value of a ticket. Why should that happen? Because a lower ticket price means the organisers' beancounters can book a lower profit, pay less tax. Oh, and if fans are unhappy at being ripped off, their anger can be directed away from the performers and towards some faceless 'touts'.

Event organisers like the "Ticket tout" narrative, and have to be seen to try and Do Something. In reality? How very convenient to be able to keep the greater part of an event's profits off the balance sheet, out of sight of the taxman and perhaps also cannon-fodder investors.

[youfoolishboy]

I bought tickets for my wife a few months ago for and Adele concert. I had to buy them as I we were both trying to get them from different locations as it took about an hour queuing online to get them due to the large demand and I got in first. I used my credit card to buy them so far so good but this artist hates touts and put restrictions on the purchase whereby the card holder had to be at the concert this caused a major problem and involved calling Ticketmaster to credit my card with the money and then debit my wife's, I was very concerned that the transfer would not be possible. I should point out her 3 friends she is going with are obviously not on the tickets so what happens if my wife is unable to go at short notice? A system may need to be put in to prevent touts but the one used just now, and proposed by the OP, is not user friendly.

[paulnumbers]

Quite why the state needs to get involved I have no idea.

It's very largely the state that's being short-changed.

"Ticket touts" happen when the market price for something differs from a face value of a ticket. Why should that happen? Because a lower ticket price means the organisers' beancounters can book a lower profit, pay less tax. Oh, and if fans are unhappy at being ripped off, their anger can be directed away from the performers and towards some faceless 'touts'.

Event organisers like the "Ticket tout" narrative, and have to be seen to try and Do Something. In reality? How very convenient to be able to keep the greater part of an event's profits off the balance sheet, out of sight of the taxman and perhaps also cannon-fodder investors.

Interesting UncleEbenezer. Do you have any evidence that backs this up?

[paulnumbers]

And what if auto systems were developed that bought up all the petrol, loaves of bread, medical supplies etc and sold them on to us at 100x their value ? It's unethical and nothing but legalised robbery. Not for much longer though, although the parasites will probably find a way around it.

Effectively what you're describing is a monopoly, and we already have rules against them, and we break them up. So I'm not sure your extreme example is relevant.

[Slarti]

Quite why the state needs to get involved I have no idea.

Because the touts are proven crooks.

Ed Sheeran is doing a charity gig soon, donating his time for the charity, because of the problems with touts, the venue has organised cardholder details on the tickets and will not allow entry to the venue without the cardholder present.

At least one of the "2nd market" ticket websites is still selling tickets for this gig in volumes that prove it is not true 2nd market and where those buying the tickets won't get in. That sounds like fraud to me.

Slarti

[gryffron]

Wouldn't it be easier to print your name and credit card number on the ticket and require you to present the card and photo ID at the ticket barrier?

IMO that's a lousy idea, because:
A) I might want to buy tickets for a friend as a gift. I don't want to go myself.
B) I don't want to carry my passport at a heaving, sweaty, muddy, crowded concert, where it can easily be lost or stolen, and at best becomes a sweaty lump of pulp in my pocket.

The fundamental problem, is that the tickets are not being sold at the right price in the first place.

I don't understand why they don't use a 21st century pricing system, rather than a 19th century one. Look how we price plane ticket, train tickets, coach tickets, hotel rooms, holidays...

I suggest:
Online auction for the first couple of rows.
Initial massive price when tickets are released, gradually reducing until people start buying them. And then gradually reducing as the venue fills and the seats get further back.
People who are willing to pay the most get the best tickets.
All the ticket money goes to the venues (and ultimately performers).
No restriction required on anyone buying and selling tickets. (or giving them to friends)
The touts are welcome to take the risk and buy high if they want. But unless they can sell prime tickets at a very high price to latecomers, they are likely to lose out by paying more than later buyers.
And, every venue would be full. Albeit, unpopular/undersold gigs might end up selling tickets for a couple of quid. But that's good too, "social" ticketing.

The current fixed-price-first-come-first-served system only suits the touts who have BOTH automated systems to buy online AND call centre staff to buy up huge wads of tickets at way below market price.

Don't understand why tickets are still sold fixed price. Unless there is some historic legislation which forces this?

Gryff

[paulnumbers]

Quite why the state needs to get involved I have no idea.

Because the touts are proven crooks.

Ed Sheeran is doing a charity gig soon, donating his time for the charity, because of the problems with touts, the venue has organised cardholder details on the tickets and will not allow entry to the venue without the cardholder present.

At least one of the "2nd market" ticket websites is still selling tickets for this gig in volumes that prove it is not true 2nd market and where those buying the tickets won't get in. That sounds like fraud to me.

Slarti

If that's the case there is a pretty clear paper trail to the perpetrator. Existing laws suffice.

[vrdiver]

I suggest:
Online auction for the first couple of rows.
Initial massive price when tickets are released, gradually reducing until people start buying them. And then gradually reducing as the venue fills and the seats get further back.
People who are willing to pay the most get the best tickets.
All the ticket money goes to the venues (and ultimately performers).
No restriction required on anyone buying and selling tickets. (or giving them to friends)
The touts are welcome to take the risk and buy high if they want. But unless they can sell prime tickets at a very high price to latecomers, they are likely to lose out by paying more than later buyers.
And, every venue would be full. Albeit, unpopular/undersold gigs might end up selling tickets for a couple of quid. But that's good too, "social" ticketing.

The current fixed-price-first-come-first-served system only suits the touts who have BOTH automated systems to buy online AND call centre staff to buy up huge wads of tickets at way below market price.

Don't understand why tickets are still sold fixed price. Unless there is some historic legislation which forces this?

Gryff

+1

VRD

[Redmires]

IMO that's a lousy idea, because:
A) I might want to buy tickets for a friend as a gift. I don't want to go myself.
B) I don't want to carry my passport at a heaving, sweaty, muddy, crowded concert, where it can easily be lost or stolen, and at best becomes a sweaty lump of pulp in my pocket.

Errrr..... Isn't that how it used to be before the secondary ticket megacorps got involved. And you want to make it more complex so that the parasites can earn even more bucks. I seem to remember that the Motley Fool music board was frequented by music lovers. At the risk of sounding like an old hippy, it seems that the spirit has gone.

[didds]

I can see the argument when football hooligans are involved. But normal events with willing buyers and willing sellers coming together? I don't know what the problem is, but perhaps I'm an unreformed libertarian.

The problem is that the touts buying so many tickets means the ordinary punter CAN'T get them at the published prices... leaving them to either not attend the show or be forced to go through a tout to see it, at inflated ticket prices. In this regard I don;t really see it as "willing buyers" but "frustrated buyers with fewer/no options"

didds

[didds]

I should point out her 3 friends she is going with are obviously not on the tickets so what happens if my wife is unable to go at short notice?.

presumably the friends would go with your wife's CC to p[rove one of them is "her".

obvious caveats in place.


A more obvious concern/issue is where a CC has been replaced between buying and attending. Especially when tyhe tickets are bnought months in advance and the original CC expires. Its full of holes.

didds

[didds]

The problem is that the auto systems gobble up all the tickets in minutes, seconds even, so ordinary punters never get a chance to buy at face value.

Yes, I understand the problem for "punters", I don't see why the state should be trying to intervene. If a business is not looking after the interests of it's end users, so be it.

https://iea.org.uk/blog/in-defence-of-ticket-touts

sometimes the event organiser IS trying to look after the interests of its punters. There was a time AIUI when rugby international tickets were kept at the price they were to make them affordable for ordinary fans of the game to be able to afford them. The "real market prices" being inflated by interest it was argued by those that weren't "ordinary fans". That doesn't make the lower face value ticket price being "wrong" as it dealt with a non profit maximising model.

didds