Tchaichovsy Symphony No 6 Pathetique

[Dod101]

I attended a concert recently by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra and one of the pieces was the Pathetique. The second movement was increasingly discordant to my ears and to my surprise after the movement was over, the leading violinist stood up and played the tuning A again so that the orchestra could retune. It sounded a bit better after that but I have never come across that happening before and I have been to a lot of concerts. It also of course, broke up the flow of the symphony.

Does anyone know why they would have gone out of tune so quickly?

Dod

[Arborbridge]

I attended a concert recently by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra and one of the pieces was the Pathetique. The second movement was increasingly discordant to my ears and to my surprise after the movement was over, the leading violinist stood up and played the tuning A again so that the orchestra could retune. It sounded a bit better after that but I have never come across that happening before and I have been to a lot of concerts. It also of course, broke up the flow of the symphony.

Does anyone know why they would have gone out of tune so quickly?

Dod

Well, tht's a weird one. Like you, I have been to hundreds, no more likely a thousand or more, concerts of various sorts and never come across anything like this. It's a little odd anyway - even if a stringed instrument went sharp , for example, the player would adjust. It's hardly likely that the woodwind of brass couldn't retune as they went along. Strange.

Arb.

[bungeejumper]

What was the weather like outside? Sudden changes of temperature and humidity can send a stringed orchestral instrument off-tune pretty fast, although I've never heard it happening for a whole string section during a live performance. Maybe they'd been warming up in a room with a different temperature?

I certainly have seen a conductor stop a performance in mid-movement to get a single instrument re-tuned. It's one of those things, like somebody breaking a string or a peg slipping, that contribute to the "reality" of the experience. Everyone seemed to regard the situation as mildly humorous.

BJ

[Dod101]

I wonder if bungeejumper might be on to something. The hall is a relatively new one, quite small by the standards of say central London but with excellent acoustics. The weather was dry when I turned up at 7.15 or so but to my surprise there was heavy rain when I emerged about 9.45 pm. Could that do it?

I do not really like a chamber orchestra playing a Symphony anyway but that had nothing to do with it and I should say that the first piece was Nicola Benedetti playing a new piece by James Macmillan and it was excellent.

The second movement of the Pathetique got increasingly discordant. That was the only piece after the interval. Not surprisingly though, I think that it all rather threw the orchestra because over the piece it was not the best rendering of the Pathetique I have ever heard.

Dod

[bungeejumper]

I should say that the first piece was Nicola Benedetti playing a new piece by James Macmillan and it was excellent.

Thanks, that sounds interesting. I've just read the Scotsman's piece (from 8th September, so before the performance), and it sounds like something I ought to hear.

BJ

[Dod101]

I should say that the first piece was Nicola Benedetti playing a new piece by James Macmillan and it was excellent.

Thanks, that sounds interesting. I've just read the Scotsman's piece (from 8th September, so before the performance), and it sounds like something I ought to hear.

BJ

The concert I attended was in Perth on 28 September (the day before the Edinburgh performance) and it was the world premier of the Sir James MacMillan Violin Concerto No 2. I would have liked to have heard it a second time. The composer was there in person and took a bow along with Benedetti. MacMillan's music is, I find, quite accessible, unlike some modern pieces!

Dod

[Dod101]

I see I got the spelling of Tchaikovsky wrong in the heading, for which my 'umble apologies.

Dod

[bungeejumper]

Curiouser and curiouser. I've just read the Guardian's concert review (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/ ... -intrigues), which loves the MacMillan concerto but doesn't raise the tuning issue on the Tchaikovsky. (It does, however, echo your comments about the third movement struggling to settle.)

It was certainly the highlight of the SCO’s season opening concert with principal conductor Maxim Emelyanychev, a programme that opened strongly with a tautly rhythmic performance of John Adams’ Chairman Dances but closed with a rather wayward account of Tchaikovsky’s Sixth Symphony. There were some questionable decisions of pacing, particularly the third movement, taken at such a frantic pace the music seemed in danger of tripping over itself in its haste to reach the finale.

BJ

[UncleEbenezer]

I see I got the spelling of Tchaikovsky wrong in the heading, for which my 'umble apologies.

Dod

Surely anything other than Чайко́вский is a transliteration, and neither correct nor wrong?

[bungeejumper]

Surely anything other than Чайко́вский is a transliteration, and neither correct nor wrong?

LOL, there's always one. The musicians I know tend to call him Tchaik.

BJ

[Dod101]

I see I got the spelling of Tchaikovsky wrong in the heading, for which my 'umble apologies.

Dod

Surely anything other than Чайко́вский is a transliteration, and neither correct nor wrong?

Thanks for that. You have made me feel better.

Dod

[Dod101]

Curiouser and curiouser. I've just read the Guardian's concert review (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/ ... -intrigues), which loves the MacMillan concerto but doesn't raise the tuning issue on the Tchaikovsky. (It does, however, echo your comments about the third movement struggling to settle.)

It was certainly the highlight of the SCO’s season opening concert with principal conductor Maxim Emelyanychev, a programme that opened strongly with a tautly rhythmic performance of John Adams’ Chairman Dances but closed with a rather wayward account of Tchaikovsky’s Sixth Symphony. There were some questionable decisions of pacing, particularly the third movement, taken at such a frantic pace the music seemed in danger of tripping over itself in its haste to reach the finale.

BJ

The Guardian is reviewing the concert held the evening after the one I attended. The first concert was held in Perth, the second in Edinburgh (that is the one reviewed) and the third in Glasgow, all with the same programme. That would explain why the Guardian did not mention the tuning matter but it is interesting that they comment about the rendering of the Pathetique. I guess we ought to blame the conductor for that. He was a flamboyant type with arms all over the place. Conductor's matter!

BTW although I do not like the Guardian's news coverage I think quite highly of them for their arts coverage, whether music or books, so thanks for that link.

Dod

[bungeejumper]

The Guardian is reviewing the concert held the evening after the one I attended. The first concert was held in Perth, the second in Edinburgh (that is the one reviewed) and the third in Glasgow, all with the same programme. That would explain why the Guardian did not mention the tuning matter but it is interesting that they comment about the rendering of the Pathetique. I guess we ought to blame the conductor for that. He was a flamboyant type with arms all over the place. Conductor's matter!

Either that, or else they were keen to get the end before their instruments went off tune again.

BJ

[Dod101]

The Guardian is reviewing the concert held the evening after the one I attended. The first concert was held in Perth, the second in Edinburgh (that is the one reviewed) and the third in Glasgow, all with the same programme. That would explain why the Guardian did not mention the tuning matter but it is interesting that they comment about the rendering of the Pathetique. I guess we ought to blame the conductor for that. He was a flamboyant type with arms all over the place. Conductor's matter!

Either that, or else they were keen to get the end before their instruments went off tune again.

BJ

Anyway, I have just emailed the orchestra director. I intended to do so anyway but never got round to it. I will report what response I get if any.

Dod

[Arborbridge]

Surely anything other than Чайко́вский is a transliteration, and neither correct nor wrong?

Thanks for that. You have made me feel better.

Dod

Or some might be familiar with Tschaikowsky!

[Arborbridge]

I wasn't at the concert, but could the Guardian critic be overlooking that the whole point of the third movement is to be desparately frantic? It is a attempt to whip up an image of optimism but hiding the grief and hopelessness underneath. Manic depressive music. It's a foil for the last movement, in which, as someone said, you can almost hear the nails being driven into his coffin.

Some people rate the Manfred as his greatest piece, and it certainly excels in the complexity of its instrumentation - divided strings etc - but the 6th Symphony cannot be matched for its power and perfection.

BTW, I always admire the Grand PDD from the Nutcracker. Often overlooked but this is a piece of genius. Tchaik takes a simple descending 8 note phrase and builds many minutes of development round it. In the ballet the climax is echoed when Suger Plum effortlessly leaps on to the shoulder of the Prince: if it happens precisely on the beat it's a miracle that always brings a physical reaction in me, a real tear jerk moment.

Arb.

[gpadsa]

Thanks for that. You have made me feel better.
Dod

Or some might be familiar with Tschaikowsky!

I have a CD where it is Čajkovskij

(from RIAS Symphonie-Orchester) according to wikipedia RIAS = Rundfunk im amerikanischen Sektor / "Radio In the American Sector"

gpadsa

[Dod101]

I wasn't at the concert, but could the Guardian critic be overlooking that the whole point of the third movement is to be desparately frantic? It is a attempt to whip up an image of optimism but hiding the grief and hopelessness underneath. Manic depressive music. It's a foil for the last movement, in which, as someone said, you can almost hear the nails being driven into his coffin.

Some people rate the Manfred as his greatest piece, and it certainly excels in the complexity of its instrumentation - divided strings etc - but the 6th Symphony cannot be matched for its power and perfection.

BTW, I always admire the Grand PDD from the Nutcracker. Often overlooked but this is a piece of genius. Tchaik takes a simple descending 8 note phrase and builds many minutes of development round it. In the ballet the climax is echoed when Suger Plum effortlessly leaps on to the shoulder of the Prince: if it happens precisely on the beat it's a miracle that always brings a physical reaction in me, a real tear jerk moment.

Arb.

Sticking to the Pathetique, yes you are of course right. I have several CDs of it and like most concert goers know it well. I was not concerned about the tempo. More that the orchestra were I thought a little disjointed after the break to retune. As I said earlier, I was at the Perth concert whereas the Guardian article was reviewing the concert the following evening in Edinburgh. Same orchestra and same conductor though.

Dod

[stevensfo]

I wasn't at the concert, but could the Guardian critic be overlooking that the whole point of the third movement is to be desparately frantic? It is a attempt to whip up an image of optimism but hiding the grief and hopelessness underneath. Manic depressive music. It's a foil for the last movement, in which, as someone said, you can almost hear the nails being driven into his coffin.

Some people rate the Manfred as his greatest piece, and it certainly excels in the complexity of its instrumentation - divided strings etc - but the 6th Symphony cannot be matched for its power and perfection.

BTW, I always admire the Grand PDD from the Nutcracker. Often overlooked but this is a piece of genius. Tchaik takes a simple descending 8 note phrase and builds many minutes of development round it. In the ballet the climax is echoed when Suger Plum effortlessly leaps on to the shoulder of the Prince: if it happens precisely on the beat it's a miracle that always brings a physical reaction in me, a real tear jerk moment.

Arb.

Sticking to the Pathetique, yes you are of course right. I have several CDs of it and like most concert goers know it well. I was not concerned about the tempo. More that the orchestra were I thought a little disjointed after the break to retune. As I said earlier, I was at the Perth concert whereas the Guardian article was reviewing the concert the following evening in Edinburgh. Same orchestra and same conductor though.

Dod

I haven't played in a full orchestra, but I have played clarinet in large wind bands and it really only takes one or two players to mess it up. It may be them, or the varying effects of the temperature on different instruments, the quality of the wood, strings, set-up etc.

Re. The Nutcracker, I absolutely adore Lesley Collier with Anthony Dowell. I got the DVD many years ago after seeing her dance La fille mal gardee. Amazing woman!

Steve

PS I thought it was always the oboist who plays the tuning A?

[Dod101]

Sticking to the Pathetique, yes you are of course right. I have several CDs of it and like most concert goers know it well. I was not concerned about the tempo. More that the orchestra were I thought a little disjointed after the break to retune. As I said earlier, I was at the Perth concert whereas the Guardian article was reviewing the concert the following evening in Edinburgh. Same orchestra and same conductor though.

Dod

I haven't played in a full orchestra, but I have played clarinet in large wind bands and it really only takes one or two players to mess it up. It may be them, or the varying effects of the temperature on different instruments, the quality of the wood, strings, set-up etc.

Re. The Nutcracker, I absolutely adore Lesley Collier with Anthony Dowell. I got the DVD many years ago after seeing her dance La fille mal gardee. Amazing woman!

Steve

PS I thought it was always the oboist who plays the tuning A?

You will know better than I but the violinist stood up playing a note which was certainly higher than a middle C. The whole orchestra seemed to join in, but it seemed to me in the preceding movement that they in general were horribly out of tune.

Dod