The Lemon Fool

Just a heads up for anyone who was accessing government services through Gov.uk Verify. This service was decommissioned at the start of this month with little to no publicity and you will now have to go through the laborious and unnecessarily difficult process of registering with the Government Gateway service and use that from now on (or as the link below suggests go back to pen and paper).

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/ ... -and-paper

HM Revenue & Customs has sprung a cruel April fool trick on me and potentially millions of other self-employed citizens. Until now, it has operated a system called Gov.uk Verify which allows people to confirm their identity via the Post Office or Experian, using a driving licence or credit records. This was vital to enable those of us who don’t have a UK passport to access government services, including self-assessment tax accounts. HMRC now informs me that, from 1 April, I can no longer use my Gov.uk Verify account to sign in to HMRC digital services. Instead, I’ve been told to set up a “Government Gateway” account.

To do this, applicants have to have two items from a list of acceptable ID – a UK passport, pay slip, tax credit or a Northern Ireland driving licence. I don’t have any of these. When I called HMRC, an agent told me he was in the same situation. I was referred to the self-assessment team which was unaware of the change, and advised that I would have to revert to paper tax returns, which, the agent told me, was absurd as the government is trying to encourage all returns to be filed online.

LW, Todmorden
.
.
.

...This has been on the cards for years!

I never used Gov.UK Verify, stuck with good old Government Gateway authentication - always worked for me.

Don't know about the "pen and paper".

From the article, only terminated by HMRC from this month. Still in use (til April 2023) for other departments.

I've been forced to do 2 paper returns for Mum. Each time I need the full form for a capital gain reports. So of course HMRC sent her a short form in the post today, which is of no use, because they are idiots, and deserve to process paper forms forever

JohnB wrote:...because they are idiots, and deserve to process paper forms forever

I strongly suspect their processing of paper forms consists solely of scanning them in to their IT system.

XFool wrote:

JohnB wrote:...because they are idiots, and deserve to process paper forms forever

I strongly suspect their processing of paper forms consists solely of scanning them in to their IT system.

Which would mean that they do not have discrete electronic information about your return. For that they would need clerks to transcribe individual data items into their database, which is expensive. So they probably only perform that for a subset of your annual data, if at all.

So the odds are that submitting an online return not only gives the taxman more information about you than is readily available, but of course you are also saving them money. Why would you do either?

My accountant, who used to work for HMRC, recommends to all clients that they submit their returns on paper as it makes it harder for the taxman to find problems with your return. I cannot independently verify if that is true, but it certainly sounds plausible. Why help them cause trouble for you? Why make it easier for them to mess with you?

Lootman wrote:

XFool wrote: I strongly suspect their processing of paper forms consists solely of scanning them in to their IT system.

Which would mean that they do not have discrete electronic information about your return. For that they would need clerks to transcribe individual data items into their database, which is expensive. So they probably only perform that for a subset of your annual data, if at all.

So the odds are that submitting an online return not only gives the taxman more information about you than is readily available, but of course you are also saving them money. Why would you do either?

I fail to see how the online return gives "more information" than the paper version, as it asks for the same information as the paper version. As I say, if you submit a paper version my guess is it is simply scanned into the same system the online version fronts. Perhaps somebody with insight could confirm this? As to contributing to wasting their money - can we then conclude that you are in favour of encouraging more expensive and wasteful government?

Lootman wrote:My accountant, who used to work for HMRC, recommends to all clients that they submit their returns on paper as it makes it harder for the taxman to find problems with your return. I cannot independently verify if that is true, but it certainly sounds plausible. Why help them cause trouble for you? Why make it easier for them to mess with you?

Has he ever put forward any convincing explanation for this? I believe there are a few unusual circumstances that are not dealt with online but then, if you are submitting a paper return, you would be dealing with them. Assuming you are not fiddling your return.

Anyway, this is all rather OT.

XFool wrote:

Lootman wrote: Which would mean that they do not have discrete electronic information about your return. For that they would need clerks to transcribe individual data items into their database, which is expensive. So they probably only perform that for a subset of your annual data, if at all.

So the odds are that submitting an online return not only gives the taxman more information about you than is readily available, but of course you are also saving them money. Why would you do either?

I fail to see how the online return gives "more information" than the paper version, as it asks for the same information as the paper version. As I say, if you submit a paper version my guess is it is simply scanned into the same system that the online version fronts. Perhaps somebody with insight could confirm this?

You made the point yourself. A scan of your return does not populate a database. It is basically a photograph of your return.

Whereas an online return can potentially populate a database, making it easier to perform cross-checks automatically.

Lootman wrote:

XFool wrote:I fail to see how the online return gives "more information" than the paper version, as it asks for the same information as the paper version. As I say, if you submit a paper version my guess is it is simply scanned into the same system that the online version fronts. Perhaps somebody with insight could confirm this?

You made the point yourself. A scan of your return does not populate a database. It is basically a photograph of your return.

Whereas an online return can potentially populate a database, making it easier to perform cross-checks automatically.

You've lost me. Or you've lost something...

You do realise by "scan" I don't mean they simply take pretty pictures (to hang on the wall?) I mean they scan a return in order to electronically directly enter the paper submitted data into their IT system.

XFool wrote:

Lootman wrote: You made the point yourself. A scan of your return does not populate a database. It is basically a photograph of your return.

Whereas an online return can potentially populate a database, making it easier to perform cross-checks automatically.

You do realise by "scan" I don't mean they simply take pretty pictures (to hang on the wall?) I mean they scan a return in order to electronically directly enter the paper submitted data into their IT system.

I fear you do not understand what the word "scan" means. It is to merely record an image. The population of a datebase takes a lot more than that.

Lootman wrote:

XFool wrote:You do realise by "scan" I don't mean they simply take pretty pictures (to hang on the wall?) I mean they scan a return in order to electronically directly enter the paper submitted data into their IT system.

I fear you do not understand what the word "scan" means. It is to merely record an image. The population of a datebase takes a lot more than that.

Oh dear!

Might as well leave it there...

XFool wrote:

Lootman wrote: I fear you do not understand what the word "scan" means. It is to merely record an image. The population of a datebase takes a lot more than that.

Might as well leave it there.

If you do not understand what the word "scan" means, then yes I agree.

Anyways...

Just to confirm the OP, I logged on today to my Personal Tax Account and the only given option to logon now is by Government Gateway.

Lootman wrote:I fear you do not understand what the word "scan" means. It is to merely record an image. The population of a datebase takes a lot more than that.

Yes. It obviously takes this: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q93nEgDLoFg/ ... 2B(11).jpg

And lashings of carbon paper...




Sorry! I couldn't resist.

XFool wrote:

Lootman wrote:I fear you do not understand what the word "scan" means. It is to merely record an image. The population of a datebase takes a lot more than that.

Yes. It obviously takes this: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q93nEgDLoFg/ ... 2B(11).jpg

I do not click on links that are unknown to me. But a scan is essentially an electronic image of a paper document. It provides a computer record of a paper document, enabling that physical document to be destroyed if necessary.

However ipso facto it does not populate the individual fields in a database in the way that an electronic submission does.

As I said a former HMRC employee explained this to me and it makes perfect sense. They would prefer to be able to easily cross-check your data. Whether you have the same goal is another matter.

Lootman wrote:I do not click on links that are unknown to me. But a scan is essentially an electronic image of a paper document. It provides a computer record of a paper document, enabling that physical document to be destroyed if necessary.

However ipso facto it does not populate the individual fields in a database in the way that an electronic submission does.

As I said a former HMRC employee explained this to me and it makes perfect sense. They would prefer to be able to easily cross-check your data. Whether you have the same goal is another matter.

I'd be massively surprised if all the data in a paper submission doesn't get added to the same database that electronic submissions go into. Whether this is automated or manual, or a combination of both, it's still a pretty trivial task.

Did your acquaintance definitively state this doesn't happen?

Scott.

On the substantive point, I have used the Government Gateway service for years and once it is set up it is very simple to access. I have no idea why the OP or the Guardian correspondent are getting so uptight about it.

Incidentally it is not just self employed citizens who are affected it is people like me (many of us here no doubt) who have to file a tax return each year. But as I say, very straightforward.

Dod

Its not using the gateway when set up, its the fact that the ID requirements to validate an account are impossible for many people, especially the retirees who don't have: payslips, tax credits, passports, driving licences, credit histories etc. Your official presense declines as you age.

Dod101 wrote: I have used the Government Gateway service for years and once it is set up it is very simple to access.

I would echo that. It seemed to me that the verefy service was set uo to fail. I tried to use it several years ago but the application failed. Points included that at the time I only had a paper driving licence, the operating system on my phone was too old, mt credit cards had variations on my name, By contrasr setting up the HMRC access was simpicity itself and gad been done earluer, so all the same pedantic points would have applied.

Dod101 wrote:On the substantive point, I have used the Government Gateway service for years and once it is set up it is very simple to access. I have no idea why the OP or the Guardian correspondent are getting so uptight about it.
Incidentally it is not just self employed citizens who are affected it is people like me (many of us here no doubt) who have to file a tax return each year. But as I say, very straightforward.
Dod

I entirely agree. The Gateway service is easy to set up and easy to use, not just for tax but for other govt. ops. It is a one-stop shop for access to UK govt. services (see https://www.gov.uk/log-in-register-hmrc-online-services)

swill453 wrote:

Lootman wrote:I do not click on links that are unknown to me. But a scan is essentially an electronic image of a paper document. It provides a computer record of a paper document, enabling that physical document to be destroyed if necessary.

However ipso facto it does not populate the individual fields in a database in the way that an electronic submission does.

As I said a former HMRC employee explained this to me and it makes perfect sense. They would prefer to be able to easily cross-check your data. Whether you have the same goal is another matter.

I'd be massively surprised if all the data in a paper submission doesn't get added to the same database that electronic submissions go into. Whether this is automated or manual, or a combination of both, it's still a pretty trivial task.

Did your acquaintance definitively state this doesn't happen?

Scott.

Yes, nowadays a scan would likely involve using Optical Character Recognition (OCR) to read the individual letters and numbers entered on the paper form which can then be input into the same database that an online form would put the entered data. Occasional manual intervention might be required if the software cannot distinguish the character but such systems have vastly improved over time and fully manual entry would usually only be required for more unstructured documents with handwritten cursive content.