Child Care

[Howyoudoin]

For pretty much all of my adult life, I have been saying that if I ever had a child, I wouldn’t let anyone else take care of him/her. It would be down to the Mother and Me to be the carers. No Nannies. One of us parents would stay home to look after the baby, depending on who was earning more.

That little idea started going wrong from about the year 2000 onwards when it became obvious that property prices would be unaffordable to most single people and you would need two salaries to be able to get a mortgage.

Fast forward 20 years, and I’ve recently got married, had a baby and bought a house. But without my Wife’s salary, that wouldn’t have been possible.

On top of that, we have been looking for a nursery for little Sasha when he will be 1 year old next August and my wife goes back to work. The price of that nursery will basically be another mortgage for us. £1,250 a month.

Thank goodness we are relatively well off. I have no idea how those who are not as well off as us cope. I suspect that the answer is that they don’t. They just fall into the benefits system.

Unless I’m missing something, the price of an average mortgage plus childcare now seems to be about £3,000 a month?

Incredible. And I bet by this time next year . . . £4,000.

HYD

[Hallucigenia]

Unless I’m missing something, the price of an average mortgage plus childcare now seems to be about £3,000 a month?

Incredible. And I bet by this time next year . . . £4,000.

Well average gross salary in the UK is £2,621 per month, and average mortgage payment was £750/month as of a few weeks ago, so I suspect you have a somewhat London-centric view of things.

On the other hand, enjoy this chart from the OECD....

https://data.oecd.org/benwage/net-childcare-costs.htm

[Howyoudoin]

Unless I’m missing something, the price of an average mortgage plus childcare now seems to be about £3,000 a month?

Incredible. And I bet by this time next year . . . £4,000.

Well average gross salary in the UK is £2,621 per month, and average mortgage payment was £750/month as of a few weeks ago, so I suspect you have a somewhat London-centric view of things.

I’m living in the very outskirts of what would be considered London although I don’t have a London postcode. Some people would say I live in Essex.

A family living in my area with a mortgage and childcare costs could not survive on the average salary you have quoted, which was the whole point of my OP. You now need two salaries to make things work. This was not the case in my parents day. In most cases, the husband would go to work, the wife would tend to the house and children.

Things have changed and I’m not at all sure for the better. Lest anyone thinks I’m being sexist, my Wife earns more than me and I’d be happy to be the stay at home parent but it’s impossible for us to live on one salary.

HYD

[servodude]

Well average gross salary in the UK is £2,621 per month, and average mortgage payment was £750/month as of a few weeks ago, so I suspect you have a somewhat London-centric view of things.

I’m living in the very outskirts of what would be considered London although I don’t have a London postcode. Some people would say I live in Essex.

A family living in my area with a mortgage and childcare costs could not survive on the average salary you have quoted, which was the whole point of my OP. You now need two salaries to make things work. This was not the case in my parents day. In most cases, the husband would go to work, the wife would tend to the house and children.

Things have changed and I’m not at all sure for the better. Lest anyone thinks I’m being sexist, my Wife earns more than me and I’d be happy to be the stay at home parent but it’s impossible for us to live on one salary.

HYD

Going to be hard to keep this suitably a-political for the pub but I'll try.
There are some places in the world where the predominant (or at least prevailing by those with the power to change it) attitude to childcare is "why should we help them out", "what's in it for us"... there are other places where they think "who's going to do Bjorn's work if they have to stay home because they can't afford to put Frida in a creche"
- and they'll fund help accordingly
That attitude isn't confined to childcare, it's things like "why should nurses park for free?", or even "why should anyone thank the bus driver?"

It kind of boils down to having respect for, and seeing the worth in, what everyone does (where worth is viewed in more than simply monetary terms). You get what you vote for (obviously you actually get what those that voted for the winning party voted for.. but you know what I mean)

Anyways if they still do salary sacrifice child care vouchers in the UK look in to that - there was a cap but it felt like 40% free cash at the time

-sd

[Gerry557]

Yes children are expensive. So the better paid, the more options you have. My wife got a part time job as the kids got older but we could not afford to pay for her to go back to work as we were worse off financially.

Childcare is a much lower time wise burden than a mortgage, unless you keep having more kids. We all want relative low cost childcare but then want degree trained childcare staff, good staff/child ratios, suitable buildings that are warm etc. A few mums getting together in the scout hut won't be tolerated these days.

Unfortunately you just have to suck it up until they get older or make different lifestyle choices. Some are lucky and have friends and family that can help. Personally I think stay at home mothers don't get the credit they deserve.

Hopefully your wife will be able to keep contributing to her pension, paying towards the mortgage and building time and experience in her job that might earn her a promotion or better job chances. Not something the stay a home mum gets.

[Howyoudoin]

My wife got a part time job as the kids got older but we could not afford to pay for her to go back to work as we were worse off financially.

I’m not sure that I follow you. Does this mean that you were getting government assistance that worked out to more money than your wife could earn by working full time?

Personally I think stay at home mothers don't get the credit they deserve.

Hear hear. It would be our preference for one of us to be a stay at home parent but we wouldn’t earn enough to cover the bills.

HYD

[Gerry557]

My wife got a part time job as the kids got older but we could not afford to pay for her to go back to work as we were worse off financially.

I’m not sure that I follow you. Does this mean that you were getting government assistance that worked out to more money than your wife could earn by working full time?

Personally I think stay at home mothers don't get the credit they deserve.

Hear hear. It would be our preference for one of us to be a stay at home parent but we wouldn’t earn enough to cover the bills.

HYD

No the cost of going to work, petrol parking etc were more then she was earning on part time hours, coupled with new work clothing and additional costs for my lack of transport meant we were subsidising her working. Later she eventually found a different part time job that needed less childcare hours and covered travel when she wasn't working from home etc that actually brought in a little extra. Whilst this was only a small amount it meant quite a lot at that particular time especially after the initial job left us with outgoings larger than incomings.

That was probably the low point in our lifecycle and things slowly improved I was promoted several times and earnt more she was able to start full time work. I suppose travel costs as a percentage reduce working full time compared to part time.

I know another couple going through similar circumstances. Looking for child friendly hours work. You know the sort able to drop off the kids at school then start, hopefully within walking distance of the school etc. So no travel costs and finish in time to pick them up. Works great until the school holidays, teacher training days or there is a snowdrop forecast. Another couple I know worked opposite days and nights. Never argued cos they never saw each other except for child handovers but I suppose you have to do something to make it work.

[Rhyd6]

I am so lucky to be involved in the childcare arrangements for my great, great grandchildren. Their mums, married to two of our grandsons, both work partime so we have the pleasure of picking the two eldest 6 & 8 up from school and having our great grandson one day a week as he's only 2. I make sure that we have our grandson on a Thurs. so that I can take him to the play school run by mums and grandparents in the village. Childcare costs in this area are prohibitive so a lot of grandparents are lucky enough to be involved. I really don't know how some parents manage and I thank my lucky stars that I was able to call on my parents and in laws when my two girls were young.

R6

[Lootman]

if they still do salary sacrifice child care vouchers in the UK look in to that - there was a cap but it felt like 40% free cash at the time

Ended in 2018 I believe.

Here is a piece from today rubbishing the alleged 30 hours a week of "free" childcare:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -childcare

[Sussexlad]

A family living in my area with a mortgage and childcare costs could not survive on the average salary you have quoted, which was the whole point of my OP. You now need two salaries to make things work. This was not the case in my parents day. In most cases, the husband would go to work, the wife would tend to the house and children.

Things have changed and I’m not at all sure for the better. Lest anyone thinks I’m being sexist, my Wife earns more than me and I’d be happy to be the stay at home parent but it’s impossible for us to live on one salary. HYD

When we bought our first end of terrace 2 bed house in 1967, it cost £3850 and I was earning around £1000/yr. The mortgage was £23/mth, 1/3 of my monthly income. My wife also worked full-time earning a bit less. We didn't have a child for 5 years, whilst we sorted out the house and had a few holidays. After our child arrived, she gave up work, only going part-time after he went to school at 5.

There is simply no comparison now, certainly in the SE, where that same house is now 8 or 9x the equivalent job's salary !

I suspect the inability for mums to be there for their kids, is a factor in the apparent deterioration in children's mental well-being and also makes them more vulnerable to crime gangs, spending more time on the streets.

One other aspect I note, though in no way accounting for the differential in this region, is the desire to move into a pristine home ! Judging by 'Homes under the Hammer, buyers will pay many £10,000s extra, rather than DIYing it over time. No doubt priorities have changed. Just my two-penneth.

Susexlad

[Gerry557]

A family living in my area with a mortgage and childcare costs could not survive on the average salary you have quoted, which was the whole point of my OP. You now need two salaries to make things work. This was not the case in my parents day. In most cases, the husband would go to work, the wife would tend to the house and children.

Things have changed and I’m not at all sure for the better. Lest anyone thinks I’m being sexist, my Wife earns more than me and I’d be happy to be the stay at home parent but it’s impossible for us to live on one salary. HYD

When we bought our first end of terrace 2 bed house in 1967, it cost £3850 and I was earning around £1000/yr. The mortgage was £23/mth, 1/3 of my monthly income. My wife also worked full-time earning a bit less. We didn't have a child for 5 years, whilst we sorted out the house and had a few holidays. After our child arrived, she gave up work, only going part-time after he went to school at 5.

There is simply no comparison now, certainly in the SE, where that same house is now 8 or 9x the equivalent job's salary !

I suspect the inability for mums to be there for their kids, is a factor in the apparent deterioration in children's mental well-being and also makes them more vulnerable to crime gangs, spending more time on the streets.

One other aspect I note, though in no way accounting for the differential in this region, is the desire to move into a pristine home ! Judging by 'Homes under the Hammer, buyers will pay many £10,000s extra, rather than DIYing it over time. No doubt priorities have changed. Just my two-penneth.

Susexlad

I'd agree with the paying extra for instant niceness. I tried to sell a "tired" house. Apart from the usual low ball offers not much interest but the agent was convinced it would go at the right price. So I replaced the kitchen/bathroom, repainted throughout and fitted new carpets. Back on the market it sold before advertised at a much higher price than expected.

Maybe new buyers don't have the time or skills for a doer upper or have funds available to do it over time. They can get a mortgage for the higher priced done up house though. How that plays out with child care I'm not sure.

Strangely it's child care that gets called out but why not council tax or car insurance or any of the other myraid of expenses. Then again people don't complain about the costs for nights down the pub as it wouldn't illicit the same compassionate response as child care.

[redsturgeon]

if they still do salary sacrifice child care vouchers in the UK look in to that - there was a cap but it felt like 40% free cash at the time

Ended in 2018 I believe.

Here is a piece from today rubbishing the alleged 30 hours a week of "free" childcare:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -childcare

Never had you down as a Guardian reader Lootman.

John

[Lootman]

Ended in 2018 I believe.

Here is a piece from today rubbishing the alleged 30 hours a week of "free" childcare:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -childcare

Never had you down as a Guardian reader Lootman.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

[servodude]

Never had you down as a Guardian reader Lootman.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

F**K can you imagine reading "The Diaries of Thérèse Coffey"!?

When we're looking for the reason for the next (and properly huge "end of life as we know it") pandemic that's where the finger will fall.

Given her output and ability - and the risk she presents - I regretfully have to suspect she's been promoted for her looks

-sd

[didds]

[
Maybe new buyers don't have the time or skills for a doer upper or have funds available to do it over time.

If they are both working full time , its potentially the time factor. If they have a very young child, its same again even if one partner is not working FT

Then again people don't complain about the costs for nights down the pub as it wouldn't illicit the same compassionate response as child care.

maybe because they dont go down the pub? Lots of people arent now - pubs were closing at a rate of knots before covid was even heard of due to lack of footfall. the covid/lockdown caused more to close. And now a CoL crisis and alck of funds is seeing more squeeze, allied to pubs themselves beign faced with horrendously increased costs. And/or pubs are open fewer nights/days due to footfall meaning those that may like to visit maybe have nowhere

Then less pubs = less opportunities to even go to one (especially when village pubs go, for those in such villages )

and vicious circles begin to operate.

didds

[Lootman]

Then again people don't complain about the costs for nights down the pub as it wouldn't illicit the same compassionate response as child care.

maybe because they dont go down the pub?

i recall that when our first was born we pretty much stopped going to the pub and restaurants. I remember thinking that, at least when they were small, the kids really didn't cost that much. And that the cost was perhaps covered by the fact that we were spending less going out.

In my experience kids cost more the older they get. The first couple of years, they are fairly affordable. Although that said my wife stayed at home to look after them when they were little, so the real cost was the opportunity cost of her lost pay rather than child care.

[Howyoudoin]

In my experience kids cost more the older they get. The first couple of years, they are fairly affordable. Although that said my wife stayed at home to look after them when they were little, so the real cost was the opportunity cost of her lost pay rather than child care.

Yes, things have changed due to property prices.

I imagine that 50 years ago the vast majority of Married Mothers having babies decided to give up work to bring the baby up.

I wonder what the percentage is now?

HYD

[Gersemi]

In my experience kids cost more the older they get. The first couple of years, they are fairly affordable. Although that said my wife stayed at home to look after them when they were little, so the real cost was the opportunity cost of her lost pay rather than child care.

Yes, things have changed due to property prices.

I imagine that 50 years ago the vast majority of Married Mothers having babies decided to give up work to bring the baby up.

I wonder what the percentage is now?

HYD

In the fifties, when my mum became pregnant, she had to resign. She was lucky to be able to stay after she got married!

[Gerry557]

In my experience kids cost more the older they get. The first couple of years, they are fairly affordable. Although that said my wife stayed at home to look after them when they were little, so the real cost was the opportunity cost of her lost pay rather than child care.

Yes, things have changed due to property prices.

I imagine that 50 years ago the vast majority of Married Mothers having babies decided to give up work to bring the baby up.

I wonder what the percentage is now?

HYD

50 years ago most women probably didn't work. Plus maternity allowances are probably much better now including things for fathers.

[Howyoudoin]

Yes, things have changed due to property prices.

I imagine that 50 years ago the vast majority of Married Mothers having babies decided to give up work to bring the baby up.

I wonder what the percentage is now?

HYD

50 years ago most women probably didn't work.

Seriously?

Is this because they were taking care of their kids / family?

HYD