No Boris

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Hallucigenia
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2253
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 3:03 am

Re: No Boris

Post by Hallucigenia »

csearle wrote:
Hallucigenia wrote:
I get so angry with that kind of attitude, it's like saying "well at least Johnson is really good at baking cakes". It's irrelevant. The only thing that matters for someone entrusted with the PMship is "how good are they at running the country?" Are they good with detail, at analysing complicated situations, reading the research on what works?

Running the country is not a branch of the sodding entertainment industry, and the people who think it is deserve to have their vote replaced with using Great British Bakeoff to determine the PM for the year.
The counter argument is President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who is/was an entertainer and, when it came down to it proved to be a remarkable leader.
My previous comments stand. And Zelenskyy's "entertainingness" has a very different foundation to Johnson's. A stand-up finds comedy in looking at the world around him, and Zelenskyy's finest hour came from understanding that for the sake of his country, he could not run away from Kyiv - summed up by "The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride". Beyond that, he ha sensibly understood his limitations and left running the war to his (very competent) generals. Whereas Johnson is all about Boris Johnson and nobody else - and even that is a highly-rehearsed confection, see this from Jeremy Vine :

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/my- ... son-story/

Boris had the look of a man who had been dragged out of a well by his ankles. His blond hair seemed to spring vertically from his head as he embarked on some opening remarks, where the occasional word, not always the obvious one, was shouted at double-volume. ‘…errrrr, Welcome to THE International. Errrrr…’
The catastrophe had happened. He did not know, could not remember, what event he was at. This is one of the biggest fears any speaker has, forgetting where they are. Johnson then did a crazy thing. To find out where he was, he very obviously turned around and looked at the large logo projected at the back of the stage.
‘…to the International SECURITISATION Awards! YES!’ he cried triumphantly, and to my amazement it brought the house down. There was a huge cheer. Everyone realised this was not going to be a normal speech. The chaos had descended on us, we were in it, and we were going to enjoy it.
‘SHEEP,’ he began. He started a story about his uncle’s farm and how OUTRAGEOUS it was that they couldn’t bury animals that had JUST died, as they used to do back in the sixties, seventies and eighties.....

Eighteen months after the marvellous securitisation night, I arrived at an awards ceremony for a totally different industry. I cannot recall whether it was concrete or chiropractors.... Did they have a pen, paper? Both were produced. A better ballpoint this time, and the back of the menu again. I watched, fascinated, as Boris pulled the paper tight across his thigh and wrote a few words – yes, SHEEP was definitely one – in a barely-legible scrawl.
Then he was on.
‘It is wonderful, and a privilege, to be here at – oh goodness.’
Laughter.
He turns, reads if off the screen.
Shocked expression, as if that has honestly never happened before, my God, I am so sorry, how embarrassing to forget which awards I am at.
Louder laughter. The hair everywhere.
Into the tirade about the uncle who is not allowed to dispose of a dead sheep on his farm...

He has had his ups and downs – before deciding that everything he does is part of a brilliant act, we should probably call as evidence his shambolic run at 10 Downing Street in the summer of 2016. His leadership campaign was kyboshed at the very press conference he had booked to launch it. MPs who turned up to support him sat with their jaws slack as he told the world he would not be able to do the job....

I realised that those two Boris speeches had made me pose the fundamental question, the one that concerns you most when you listen to a politician:
Is this guy for real?
csearle wrote:I would prefer 1 entertaining Boris to e.g. 1000 boring Starmers, Mays, Daveys, etc. C.
This is the logic that has brought the country to where it is. The PM is not part of the entertainment industry, it's a desperately important job that needs to be executed with competence. I don't care how entertaining they are, I just need them to be competent at what they do.

AsleepInYorkshire
Lemon Half
Posts: 6170
Joined: February 7th, 2017, 9:36 pm

Re: No Boris

Post by AsleepInYorkshire »

csearle wrote:The counter argument is President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who is/was an entertainer and, when it came down to it proved to be a remarkable leader.
Hallucigenia wrote:
My previous comments stand. And Zelenskyy's "entertainingness" has a very different foundation to Johnson's. A stand-up finds comedy in looking at the world around him, and Zelenskyy's finest hour came from understanding that for the sake of his country, he could not run away from Kyiv - summed up by "The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride". Beyond that, he ha sensibly understood his limitations and left running the war to his (very competent) generals. Whereas Johnson is all about Boris Johnson and nobody else - and even that is a highly-rehearsed confection, see this from Jeremy Vine :

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/my- ... son-story/

Boris had the look of a man who had been dragged out of a well by his ankles. His blond hair seemed to spring vertically from his head as he embarked on some opening remarks, where the occasional word, not always the obvious one, was shouted at double-volume. ‘…errrrr, Welcome to THE International. Errrrr…’
The catastrophe had happened. He did not know, could not remember, what event he was at. This is one of the biggest fears any speaker has, forgetting where they are. Johnson then did a crazy thing. To find out where he was, he very obviously turned around and looked at the large logo projected at the back of the stage.
‘…to the International SECURITISATION Awards! YES!’ he cried triumphantly, and to my amazement it brought the house down. There was a huge cheer. Everyone realised this was not going to be a normal speech. The chaos had descended on us, we were in it, and we were going to enjoy it.
‘SHEEP,’ he began. He started a story about his uncle’s farm and how OUTRAGEOUS it was that they couldn’t bury animals that had JUST died, as they used to do back in the sixties, seventies and eighties.....

Eighteen months after the marvellous securitisation night, I arrived at an awards ceremony for a totally different industry. I cannot recall whether it was concrete or chiropractors.... Did they have a pen, paper? Both were produced. A better ballpoint this time, and the back of the menu again. I watched, fascinated, as Boris pulled the paper tight across his thigh and wrote a few words – yes, SHEEP was definitely one – in a barely-legible scrawl.
Then he was on.
‘It is wonderful, and a privilege, to be here at – oh goodness.’
Laughter.
He turns, reads if off the screen.
Shocked expression, as if that has honestly never happened before, my God, I am so sorry, how embarrassing to forget which awards I am at.
Louder laughter. The hair everywhere.
Into the tirade about the uncle who is not allowed to dispose of a dead sheep on his farm...

He has had his ups and downs – before deciding that everything he does is part of a brilliant act, we should probably call as evidence his shambolic run at 10 Downing Street in the summer of 2016. His leadership campaign was kyboshed at the very press conference he had booked to launch it. MPs who turned up to support him sat with their jaws slack as he told the world he would not be able to do the job....

I realised that those two Boris speeches had made me pose the fundamental question, the one that concerns you most when you listen to a politician:
Is this guy for real?
csearle wrote:I would prefer 1 entertaining Boris to e.g. 1000 boring Starmers, Mays, Daveys, etc. C.
This is the logic that has brought the country to where it is. The PM is not part of the entertainment industry, it's a desperately important job that needs to be executed with competence. I don't care how entertaining they are, I just need them to be competent at what they do.
At the risk of putting words in your mouth I'd humbly suggest you are saying that
  1. Johnson was an entertainer that went into politics
  2. Zelensky was a politician that went into entertainment
  1. Johnson made his fortune after he left politics
  2. Zelensky made his fortune before he entered politics
  1. Politics and entertainment are poles apart
  2. Politics and entertainment are very similar
  1. Johnson tried to emulate Winston Churchill
  2. Zelensky surpassed Churchill
I made the last comparison up :roll: . Zelensky was under fire and there was a real threat to his life. Churchill had a 21 mile moat to protect him ;)

AiY(D)

csearle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4462
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm

Re: No Boris

Post by csearle »

swill453 wrote: I find that preference absurd and unfathomable.
I see. As the ancient Atlantian proverb says: He who does not fathom is unable to get to the bottom of anything. C.

elkay
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 209
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 1:50 am

Re: No Boris

Post by elkay »

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:Churchill had a 21 mile moat to protect him ;)

AiY(D)
By all accounts Churchill was a risk taker throughout his life, and on many occasions recklessly put his own life at risk.

didds
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4547
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:04 pm

Re: No Boris

Post by didds »

I cant speak for anybody but myself but if I ever need open heart surgery Id be happy going with the boring, tedious, awkward but extremely competent surgeon over the joke-a-minute, entertaining, life and soul of parties, chancer of a bloke holding a scalpel.

I prefer expertise over fun when the job in hand needs doing properly and competently.

Others' mileage may vary.

UncleEbenezer
Lemon Half
Posts: 9516
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:17 pm

Re: No Boris

Post by UncleEbenezer »

didds wrote:I cant speak for anybody but myself but if I ever need open heart surgery Id be happy going with the boring, tedious, awkward but extremely competent surgeon over the joke-a-minute, entertaining, life and soul of parties, chancer of a bloke holding a scalpel.

I prefer expertise over fun when the job in hand needs doing properly and competently.

Others' mileage may vary.
Jollity is good in an entertainer. As is the charisma to make it work.

Or sometimes in a figurehead. If the king could be a clown .... well OK, we're not going to get there from where we are, but in a world less eager to take offence, it's a thought ...

Boris was (is) a figurehead not for the nation but for his tribe. Which excluded not just Europe, but also other parts of Blighty; hence for example the famous insults to Liverpool (uncouth Northerners), or the cavalier attitude to NI. Not to mention that classic Public School trope, the bully and coward: a Flashman for our times.

The charismatic leader with real power is not necessarily bad - opinions on Obama may vary but few would call him a monster - but is hugely dangerous: c.f Hitler or Netanyahu. Or on a slightly lesser scale, Blair and Johnson.

didds
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4547
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:04 pm

Re: No Boris

Post by didds »

Yes... but charismatic is not necessarily "entertaining" of course.

And id still prefer a charismatic COMPETENT surgeon over a charismatic chancer of a bloke holding a scalpel.

csearle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4462
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm

Re: No Boris

Post by csearle »

I think that Boris was good at the figurehead, sound bite, highly intelligent, righteous, cause-leading stuff, and that is just fine so long as he has good people to subcontract out all the detailed technical stuff to. I'm ok with that. It is the same with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He isn't masterminding the Ukrainian military defences but he has people that are clearly expert at doing it.

So I don't think that a comparison with a surgeon (who I'd agree you'd want to be competent) is relevant. He would be more comparable with the role of the hospital manager who had persuaded people to donate to the hospital to finance the expert surgeon.

Obviously Boris f'd up royally. I have to accept that of course.

Chris

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