Prosecuted for helping the police?

[XFool]

The trouble seems to be (see recent arrests of news journalists in this country by police) too many of the "police" seem to lack all common sense. I still remember, from issues years ago where I live, telling a PCSO(?) how some persistently troublesome boys from an adjacent house had been filmed by one of my neighbours smashing up a hut in a neighbouring garden. His only comment: "People might object to being filmed" seemed to me to miss the mark by a very wide margin.

I would have thought that providing film of a crime being committed is doing your civic duty and should be rewarded.

In the UK today the law works in mysterious ways.

One time when a video IS very valuable is when making a citizen's arrest. In such a case, you not only give permission to be filmed, albeit afterwards, but you're protecting yourself from claims that you used excessive force...

You risk being charged with assault.

Quite a few years ago now, I managed to stop two teenage boys just in the act of graffiti at the entry to a pedestrian tunnel. How? The younger boy had put his schoolbag on the ground, I grabbed it. "You get this back if you throw those over that fence". The standoff lasted a while, with the younger boy making several unsuccessful attempts to get his bag back off me (I sustained a negligible injury to my hand in the process). In the end they gave in, threw their stuff over the fence - where it was irretrievable - I gave the bag back and we all went on our way. I used the tunnel regularly at the time and was pleased to see it remained graffiti free for a significant time afterwards.

Do you think I would risk doing anything like that these days? Walk on by! Nothing to do with me...

[UncleEbenezer]

I vaguely remember many years ago when the laws on child abuse were finally being overhauled and updated (at least 50 years too bloody late!) and for a few years, there were stories of children being put on the sex offenders register. I think that common sense finally prevailed and the authorities realised that little Tommy and Karen 'experimenting' may be 'underage' in theory but was definitely not the same as sexual abuse!
Steve

That rings a bell. Friend telling me the terrible story of her niece being sexually abused at infants school. Round about the turn of the century.

The 'abuser', a six-year-old boy, was excluded from the school.

Now, whatever happened, I find it less than credible that there was anything sexual in a six-year-old's actions. The nearest semi-plausible explanation is parrot-fashion imitation of something he'd seen, but I can think of more likely explanations. On the other hand, what are the odds that something traumatic like that set him off on a course that could in due course have led to real antisocial or even criminal behaviour?

[Dod101]

Reverting to the original post, if the woman had not been lane hogging in the first place, it is very likely that the original offence would never have taken place. I see it as quite right that she should be prosecuted. She was evidently too dim to see that she was in the wrong, thus encouraging others to also break the law.

Personally I do not have a dash camera anyway, but even if I did have one, I would have kept quiet about the incident.

Dod

[stevensfo]

I vaguely remember many years ago when the laws on child abuse were finally being overhauled and updated (at least 50 years too bloody late!) and for a few years, there were stories of children being put on the sex offenders register. I think that common sense finally prevailed and the authorities realised that little Tommy and Karen 'experimenting' may be 'underage' in theory but was definitely not the same as sexual abuse!
Steve

That rings a bell. Friend telling me the terrible story of her niece being sexually abused at infants school. Round about the turn of the century.

The 'abuser', a six-year-old boy, was excluded from the school.

Now, whatever happened, I find it less than credible that there was anything sexual in a six-year-old's actions. The nearest semi-plausible explanation is parrot-fashion imitation of something he'd seen, but I can think of more likely explanations. On the other hand, what are the odds that something traumatic like that set him off on a course that could in due course have led to real antisocial or even criminal behaviour?

Yes, very sad.

My aunt's husband was Headmaster (long retired) of a Primary school and we've often discussed how things have changed. He told me that expulsions had been on the increase for years before he left. In the past, the school would have spent more time looking into cases like this, got the two sets of parents together, psychiatrist, long chats with the children concerned etc and tried to work out a plan of action.

But cuts, lack of staff, pressures of the core curriculum, lack of time and parents becoming more vociferous meant that it was usually a lot easier and safer to expel the child. In some cases, it was obviously the right decision, but not always. The headteacher was in a difficult position. If he/she allowed the child to stay and the same thing happened again, the poor teacher was in the smelly stuff up to their neck and would be in all the newspapers. It was a very difficult decision to make. They knew that expelling the child could result in worse long term psychological effects than quietly getting to the bottom of things and their lives back to normal.

Of course, what that six-year old did was very wrong, but I can't help feeling sorry for the little chap.

Steve

[88V8]

... lane hogging ...

On some car forums there is a shorthand for that.... MLM... Middle Lane Morons.

But I must admit that rather than weave in and out of the lorries in the left lane, sometimes the MLM badge attaches to me

V8

[stevensfo]

... lane hogging ...

On some car forums there is a shorthand for that.... MLM... Middle Lane Morons.

But I must admit that rather than weave in and out of the lorries in the left lane, sometimes the MLM badge attaches to me

V8

Have you ever driven in Italy? The middle lane is treated as the inside lane by thousands of drivers, so undertaking is considered perfectly normal, though still illegal. Actually, since the 3rd lane is often frequented by cars going at ridiculous speeds, undertaking is probably the safest option.

In France, the law on trucks is quite strict and they have a lower speed limit and have to keep to the inside lane. Well, it was like this 26 years ago, and not sure if it's changed. I remember coming back after 9 years in France and driving down the M11 to London. All three lanes were blocked by large trucks!! My eyes nearly popped out of my head! They were holding up the traffic for miles behind. This was also a long time ago, so probably illegal now.

Steve

[Lootman]

Agreed. It might be true on some remotely used motorway in Scotland. .

Would you like to tell us where that remotely used motorway is in Scotland? I'd like to try it out.

In the initial motorway building era, Scotland was sparingly provided with a motorway which covered part of the route between our two major cities. But unlike the English motorways, it had two lanes - not three. Its true that more motorways have been added, and generally speaking, they seem to have upped the number of lanes. But on Perth to Inverness there is no chance of a motorway, and still long sections of single carriageway - however it is being gradually upgraded in sections to (2-lane) dual carriageway. So you can guess what would happen on a short dualled section if someone ambled along in the outer lane, while the remainder are desperate to catch up and get past the heavy lorry which has been creating a long tailback on the preceding single carriageway section.

But back to the M25 - with so many lanes I never thought that "rules?" regarding returning to the inside lane were intended to operate, nor did I imagine that undertaking was frowned upon. I.E. I always that that the philosophy of Scottish common sense should apply. Or is it in short supply down there?

Incidentally In the urban motorway through Glasgow, there are entries and exits for traffic on both the left and the right , so there is effectively no "outside" lane.

I have driven on the M9 and the M90 and I found them to be quiet by English standards.

As for the M25 I would agree that in practice there isn't any lane discipline. And the greater the number of lanes the less that matters. If you have ever driven around LA then you will be familiar with a situation of there being zero lane discipline and it seems to work fine, presumably because everyone expects to be overtaken on either side. And there are exits on both sides so, as in your Glasgow example, you take whatever lane makes sense for you.

[scotia]

As for the M25 I would agree that in practice there isn't any lane discipline. And the greater the number of lanes the less that matters. If you have ever driven around LA then you will be familiar with a situation of there being zero lane discipline and it seems to work fine, presumably because everyone expects to be overtaken on either side. And there are exits on both sides so, as in your Glasgow example, you take whatever lane makes sense for you.

A quote from http://www.roads.org.uk/motorway/m8 regarding the M8 through Glasgow

The section through central Glasgow is notorious and thrilling. It's manically busy, forming two sides of a never-finished inner ring road, and the mix of local, long-distance and commuter traffic can be a recipe for chronic congestion. It is five lanes wide in places, but at crucial points in the centre narrows down to two. The knotted tangle of junctions includes Britain's closest exits and more than one unusual right-hand sliproad. It was designed and built following the design guidance for American urban freeways, and it shows: the urban M8 is nothing like other UK motorways and instead is clearly and visibly straight out of Los Angeles. Glasgow is unique among the UK's major cities in having no ring road of any significance and instead carrying through traffic right through its heart.

No - I haven't been to LA, but it looks like my Glasgow driving skills should prove adequate

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Dangerous drivers caught on dashcams and fined

More of them

AiY(D)

[swill453]

I follow a few cyclists on Twitter, most notably Jeremy Vine and CyclingMikey. It seems just about every day they post videos of drivers putting cyclists' and pedestrians' lives in danger. Mikey's profile states "Reported 1,000 drivers for 800 successful prosecutions in the last 4 years or so."

Scott.

[pje16]

Agreed. It might be true on some remotely used motorway in Scotland. .

Would you like to tell us where that remotely used motorway is in Scotland? I'd like to try it out.

Back in January this year I broke down for an hour on the M90 (about 20 miles south of Perth)
It was pitch black and there were frequent 2 minutes or so gaps between cars passing in either direction
To a Londoner THAT was remote.

[Arborbridge]

From my perspective, if you can be undertaken (unless by someone driving like a proper loon) you’re probably in the wrong lane. My grandad taught me that you should treat an overtake on a multi-carriageway road as a deliberate event (just as on a single-carriageway) and move back over when you’re done. Drifting along in any lane other than the left lane is driving without due care and attention.

On today's motorways this rule is nonsense.

Agreed. It might be true on some remotely used motorway in Scotland. But on the M25 you just take a lane and then it proceeds at whatever pace it proceeds, regardless of what is going on in the other lanes. Much like on US freeways where lane discipline is also redundant.

Nonsense? That's nonsense

There is a provision, I seem to recall, in the Highway code for the case where one inner lane of solid traffic is travelling faster than an outer lane, but other than that, there can be no excuse for travelling constantly in the overtaking lanes.
We've all seen the tremendous tailbacks this can cause while the inner lane remains free for a mile or so. We have discussed this on here previously: the only answer is to prosecute people who travel for miles while "pretending to overtake" ( sometimes difficult to prove) or to allow overtaking on the inside lane.

Arb.

[Alaric]

I remember coming back after 9 years in France and driving down the M11 to London. All three lanes were blocked by large trucks!!

I thought the ban on trucks in the outside lane when there are three or more goes back over fifty years. It remains a cause of congestion on two lane motorways and dual carriageways when one truck is overtaking another at a speed differential of very few mph. Here and there I believe there are road signs imposing no overtaking rules on speed restricted vehicles.

[Lootman]

Agreed. It might be true on some remotely used motorway in Scotland. But on the M25 you just take a lane and then it proceeds at whatever pace it proceeds, regardless of what is going on in the other lanes. Much like on US freeways where lane discipline is also redundant.

Nonsense? That's nonsense

There is a provision, I seem to recall, in the Highway code for the case where one inner lane of solid traffic is travelling faster than an outer lane, but other than that, there can be no excuse for travelling constantly in the overtaking lanes.
We've all seen the tremendous tailbacks this can cause while the inner lane remains free for a mile or so. We have discussed this on here previously: the only answer is to prosecute people who travel for miles while "pretending to overtake" ( sometimes difficult to prove) or to allow overtaking on the inside lane.

When I talk about a lack of lane discipline on the M25 I simply mean that when it is sufficiently crowded then, at any point in time, any one of the four or so lanes can be the fastest. It almost seems random.

When it is not busy (2 a.m.?) then the usual rules of lane discipline apply. I was not advocating hogging the fast lane nor tailgating.

Even in the US where the "pass either side" rule is in effect, there are also usually signs that say "slower traffic keep right". So there are some rules about lane discipline in the US. However their approach is more flexible and insofar as their accident rates are worse than ours, I am not aware that is because undertaking is legal and common there.

[stevensfo]

I remember coming back after 9 years in France and driving down the M11 to London. All three lanes were blocked by large trucks!!

I thought the ban on trucks in the outside lane when there are three or more goes back over fifty years. It remains a cause of congestion on two lane motorways and dual carriageways when one truck is overtaking another at a speed differential of very few mph. Here and there I believe there are road signs imposing no overtaking rules on speed restricted vehicles.

This was approx 25 years ago, so maybe the rules are imposed more strictly now.

I was fortunate in almost never having to use a busy motorway. 99% of my journeys were on the A1, still busy but not as stressful as a motorway.

Steve

PS Many years ago when satnavs were not as good as they are now, my sister, a very nervous driver, decided to visit a friend south of London. In retrospect, somebody should have told her the golden rule of looking at a bleedin' map first! Satnavs just took you the shortest route. She followed her satnav to the letter, went down the A1 and all the way through the centre of London! I don't think she's returned since.

[SimonS]

Agreed. It might be true on some remotely used motorway in Scotland. But on the M25 you just take a lane and then it proceeds at whatever pace it proceeds, regardless of what is going on in the other lanes. Much like on US freeways where lane discipline is also redundant.

Precisely why the police need to prosecute you lot! You may not like it but the law is as I have described it.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Personally I don’t like driving on US freeways where it’s a free for all but do enjoy Autobahnen where lane discipline tends to be excellent.

Except that much of the M25 is a variable speed motorway where you are encouraged to stay in one lane rather than lane swapping (lane swapping causes more accidents and if a cause of delay) and therefore being 'undertaken' is a normal and legal situation.

[DrFfybes]

Except that much of the M25 is a variable speed motorway where you are encouraged to stay in one lane rather than lane swapping (lane swapping causes more accidents and if a cause of delay) and therefore being 'undertaken' is a normal and legal situation.

Normal? - yes

Legal? - No.

The M25 is MIE pretty unique in that people pick a lane and stick to it, this is incredibly frustrating to those not familiar and wondering WTF everyone is cruising at 60-65 mph in a Sunday afternoon when you've drien all the way from Devon, got stuck at Stonehange, and are now just about on time for your flight at Stanstead.

Paul

[Nimrod103]

Except that much of the M25 is a variable speed motorway where you are encouraged to stay in one lane rather than lane swapping (lane swapping causes more accidents and if a cause of delay) and therefore being 'undertaken' is a normal and legal situation.

Normal? - yes

Legal? - No.

The M25 is MIE pretty unique in that people pick a lane and stick to it, this is incredibly frustrating to those not familiar and wondering WTF everyone is cruising at 60-65 mph in a Sunday afternoon when you've drien all the way from Devon, got stuck at Stonehange, and are now just about on time for your flight at Stanstead.

Paul

A big problem for me on the M25 is the way 4 lanes at several points go down to 3, with the slow lane becoming the slip road at a junction. Sometimes it goes back to 4 lanes after the junction. Traffic travelling quite happily in the inside lane, usually slower moving trucks and in my case towing a caravan, have relatively little time to change lane, to avoid leaving the motorway. Given the usual traffic density on the M25, this is a potentially dangerous manoeuvre, because drivers are rarely happy to let in traffic changing lane and many are downright unpleasant about it. So I end up avoiding the inside lane in many situations - it is not worth the hassle of changing lanes.

[Leothebear]

Can you imagine the absolute carnage there'd be if everyone tried to get into the leftmost lane? Being pedantic about the rule doesn't make it workable.

[didds]

Can you imagine the absolute carnage there'd be if everyone tried to get into the leftmost lane? Being pedantic about the rule doesn't make it workable.

yet its not unusual to see a inside lane queuing in effect for a very long way, of traffic that has got into the leftmost lane, leading up to an exit, while other vehicles sail on past them and join the dual lane slip road at the last moment.

didds