5am posts...

[Nimrod103]

I would suggest that it is not entirely a northern vs southern thing. Growing up in Northeast London, I walked home from School for a midday meal (the like of whichI cannot remember), but returning home in the afternoon I then had my "Tea", which was cleared away long before my father came home and sat down to his "Dinner".
I have always tended to think of it more as a class thing, with Tea being working class, and an evening dinner showing clear intentions of moving up into Middle Class.

So where does "high tea" fit into all this?

I never quite understood what it was. Perhaps it was something you had late afternoon, supplemented later in the evening with "supper" as a substitute for the proper evening meal we called "dinner".

My childhood 'Tea' was things like baked beans or sardines on toast, or fishpaste spread. A 'High Tea' to me always suggests 'The Works' i.e. a hot dish, sandwiches, scones, and cakes piled high.

[DiamondEcho]

I have always tended to think of it more as a class thing, with Tea being working class, and an evening dinner showing clear intentions of moving up into Middle Class.

I take it the same way Nimrod. Though I'm interested to see how interpretations vary. Simply because the region/'class' usage seems to differ.
For example, for me 'tea' was always basic tea and biscuits in the mid afternoon, something to tide you over between lunch and supper/dinner [ie. later in the pm, in case that's open to regional interpretation too ].

But then for a year as a late teen I lodged while studying with a nearly-retired blue-collar couple. I had to adjust to returning to their home from my educational studies and having 'tea' at 5.30pm. And it was 5.30pm sharp every night. That 'tea' was in fact the hot meal for the night. Invariably swimming under volumes of revolting gelatinous gravy... I found eating the last meal of the day that early very strange indeed.

As usual though, I expect if you could see the evolution of the word use across the various regions a person might better understand the variance in meaning that exists today.

So where does "high tea" fit into all this?
I never quite understood what it was. Perhaps it was something you had late afternoon, supplemented later in the evening with "supper" as a substitute for the proper evening meal we called "dinner".

; I think this is perhaps a bit simpler to explain. Tea can be a euphamism for an intoxicant, hence the common usage of 'Special tea' for alcohol in Islamic countries. A glass of 'Special tea' out there can fly under the polite radar whereas a tea-glass full of it's actual contents, often whisky, less so. Similar cultural codes exist; I recall a friend recounting being offered 'zebra' in Israel and being perplexed. It was code for pork. I've also have heard of similar coded parallels in Egypt.
'High tea' is a another parallel, British this time, cleverly coded for the target demographic. Literally, it simply means wealthy people who get stoned mid afternoon. Trustafarian Tarquins R Us - mahn - cf. the film 'Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels'.
Whereas the 'high tea' you can increasingly see miseadingly promoted these days by some higher end hotels is a swindle and not to be confused. It's just tea, sandwiches and a piece of cake. It's a real con. There aren't even any drugs involved.

[UncleEbenezer]

So where does "high tea" fit into all this?

It's the Mad Hatter's party, of course!

I've a faint recollection of afternoon tea. I think it sometimes just meant tea or coffee, with my granny's home-baked biscuits, but the memory is very hazy. There was also something in England (so without my granny's input), possibly with substitute biccies.

[Mike4]

'High tea' is a another parallel, British this time, cleverly coded for the target demographic. Literally, it simply means wealthy people who get stoned mid afternoon. Trustafarian Tarquins R Us - mahn - cf. the film 'Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels'.
Whereas the 'high tea' you can increasingly see miseadingly promoted these days by some higher end hotels is a swindle and not to be confused. It's just tea, sandwiches and a piece of cake. It's a real con. There aren't even any drugs involved.

I think you might be onto it here.

I remember 10 or 15 years ago having "High Tea" in Betty's Tea Rooms in York and the thing that made it high and not just afternoon tea was the half bottle of decent quality champagne in the recipe.

DIsappointingly it seems to have gone from their menu, replaced with simply a glass of unbranded pink Champagne. so not even proper champagne.

World's going to the dogs, I tell ya.

[swill453]

Yes there's a difference between "high tea" and "afternoon tea". The former is a cooked meal (normally fish in breadcrumbs, chips, peas, bread and butter in my memory) served with tea (the drink) and followed by cakes.

Afternoon tea is served on a multi-tier cake stand and is sandwiches, scones and cakes.

Scott.

[TUK020]

; I think this is perhaps a bit simpler to explain. Tea can be a euphamism for an intoxicant, hence the common usage of 'Special tea' for alcohol in Islamic countries. A glass of 'Special tea' out there can fly under the polite radar whereas a tea-glass full of it's actual contents, often whisky, less so. Similar cultural codes exist; I recall a friend recounting being offered 'zebra' in Israel and being perplexed. It was code for pork. I've also have heard of similar coded parallels in Egypt.

In quite a few pubs around here, a request for a "pint of tea" will get you an interesting result.
One of the more popular brews of the local Hogs Back Brewery is 'Traditional English Ale', widely referred to by its acronym.

[rabbit]

British Rail did the most amazing high tea on the Great Western in the early 1980s. In effect it was a freshly-cooked, waiter-served, "full English" served in the afternoon, with additional and virtually unlimited scones, cream, jam, tea and coffee. A fantastic bargain for me as a student travelling to university, with the chance to while away the entire Plymouth to Paddington run in the first class restaurant car using, quite legitimately, a student discounted second class ticket, and feeding up for the week in the process! Those were the days...

[Lootman]

British Rail did the most amazing high tea on the Great Western in the early 1980s. In effect it was a freshly-cooked, waiter-served, "full English" served in the afternoon, with additional and virtually unlimited scones, cream, jam, tea and coffee. A fantastic bargain for me as a student travelling to university, with the chance to while away the entire Plymouth to Paddington run in the first class restaurant car using, quite legitimately, a student discounted second class ticket, and feeding up for the week in the process! Those were the days...

GWR runs a "Pullman" dining service between Paddington and Plymouth and Cardiff still, after a couple of years off for Covid.

You can use a second class ticket to sit in the Pullman 1st class dining car, subject to places being available, as long as you buy lunch or dinner of course (and breakfast on the South Wales service). Only first class ticket holders can reserve a place however.

I am not aware of any other train company that currently offers such a thing, except for specials and charters.

[DiamondEcho]

I remember 10 or 15 years ago having "High Tea" in Betty's Tea Rooms in York and the thing that made it high and not just afternoon tea was the half bottle of decent quality champagne in the recipe.

Did Betty have dread-locks and a wink-wink ['the 'special tea' is in the back-room loov'] look in her eye?

Perhaps it originated in India? Here's popular travel-blogger and Sub-Continent-philiac [is this by chance new word?] Karl Rock enjoying high tea in Varanasi, India. In this case Bhang Lassi + trimmings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnEiUoSVr_s 'How to Get High in India... Legally (Bhang Lassi)'.

I had one myself in Pushkar, Rajesthan c4 decades years ago. Entirely legal then. A dusty back-street tea-house with swastika symbols adorning the walls. Ancient Indian religious symbols vs anything German you understand. I ordered a bhang lassi and the waiter asked if I wanted 1, 2 or 3 Rupees of bhang added. Being 17, bold and British it made sense to go for 3.

Things certainly became relaxed, though by sun-down I begun hallucinating wildy. Walking the few hundred metres back to the hotel was on another plane, mahn. It felt like walking through the dusty back streets on the set of a spaghetti western. The imagery was wildly vivid. Dusty lanes, wondering 'holy' cows to stagger around, the cry of hawkers, turbans, extended begging hands. The flickering open flames of food-house paraffin burners, smoke, shadows. I was in a film and these were all props, it became more serious.

The next day I awoke and found that the previous evening I'd somehow bought a pair of heavy silver hoop earrings as a gift for a girl back home. Not hinged or similar, these were trad style each beaten from a single piece of metal. You place over your ear-lobe, squeeze on the hoop sides veeery hard indeed and the ring closes. Clearly the intention is it's never removed. I must have had a 2am Plan#B as I was now wearing one. Apart from the blood, swelling and pain it looked rather Adam Ant I thought.

High-tea indeed?

[Mike4]

I remember 10 or 15 years ago having "High Tea" in Betty's Tea Rooms in York and the thing that made it high and not just afternoon tea was the half bottle of decent quality champagne in the recipe.

Did Betty have dread-locks and a wink-wink ['the 'special tea' is in the back-room loov'] look in her eye?

Perhaps it originated in India? Here's popular travel-blogger and Sub-Continent-philiac [is this by chance new word?] Karl Rock enjoying high tea in Varanasi, India. In this case Bhang Lassi + trimmings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnEiUoSVr_s 'How to Get High in India... Legally (Bhang Lassi)'.

I had one myself in Pushkar, Rajesthan c4 decades years ago. Entirely legal then. A dusty back-street tea-house with swastika symbols adorning the walls. Ancient Indian religious symbols vs anything German you understand. I ordered a bhang lassi and the waiter asked if I wanted 1, 2 or 3 Rupees of bhang added. Being 17, bold and British it made sense to go for 3.

Things certainly became relaxed, though by sun-down I begun hallucinating wildy. Walking the few hundred metres back to the hotel was on another plane, mahn. It felt like walking through the dusty back streets on the set of a spaghetti western. The imagery was wildly vivid. Dusty lanes, wondering 'holy' cows to stagger around, the cry of hawkers, turbans, extended begging hands. The flickering open flames of food-house paraffin burners, smoke, shadows. I was in a film and these were all props, it became more serious.

The next day I awoke and found that the previous evening I'd somehow bought a pair of heavy silver hoop earrings as a gift for a girl back home. Not hinged or similar, these were trad style each beaten from a single piece of metal. You place over your ear-lobe, squeeze on the hoop sides veeery hard indeed and the ring closes. Clearly the intention is it's never removed. I must have had a 2am Plan#B as I was now wearing one. Apart from the blood, swelling and pain it looked rather Adam Ant I thought.

High-tea indeed?

Hmmmm that sounds to me like psilocybin AKA magic mushroom trip.

Not that I would know anything about this, obviously.

[brightncheerful]

have we woken up early?

Early? you call that early?

Last night I was in the garden with dog. 4 times between 0100, and 0200. Something must've spooked her and she just had to go out and look.

Fortunately I can go to sleep within a few minutes, sometimes seconds.

[WrenChasen]

Years ago I was staying at a hotel in the Highlands and overheard a couple of Canadian tourists discussing where and at what time they planned to eat that evening. They'd decided they didn't want high tea (all that sweet stuff) and would wait for dinner. Naturally, I did the decent thing and told them high tea would be savoury as well as sweet, and also the main meal of the evening, with no "dinner" later. They went straight to reception gave the poor girl behind the desk absolute hell when she confirmed what I'd said. According to them only savages eat dinner before 8pm.

I've always regretted not letting them starve that night.

[brightncheerful]

dinner tea or supper

https://www.lovefood.com/news/58761/din ... -or-supper

[SimonS]

Yes there's a difference between "high tea" and "afternoon tea". The former is a cooked meal (normally fish in breadcrumbs, chips, peas, bread and butter in my memory) served with tea (the drink) and followed by cakes.

Afternoon tea is served on a multi-tier cake stand and is sandwiches, scones and cakes.

Scott.

A difference between supper and dinner exists too. Supper was something informal, while dinner was a formal occasion and required formal clothing,(a Dinner suit or Evening Tails). In the Forces one was required to wear "mess undress" to supper but "mess dress" to dinners. There is a time difference too., Supper may be served around 1800 to 1900, while one may go in to dinner much later.

Social erosion and ambition has blurred the differences for many, some people feel that it indicates 'class' to have dinner but do not bother with the niceties.

Jeeves, tonight I am having an intimate supper, but tomorrow we have 12 at dinner. Please tell the cook and polish the tweenies.

[DrFfybes]

A difference between supper and dinner exists too. Supper was something informal, while dinner was a formal occasion and required formal clothing,(a Dinner suit or Evening Tails). In the Forces one was required to wear "mess undress" to supper but "mess dress" to dinners. There is a time difference too., Supper may be served around 1800 to 1900, while one may go in to dinner much later.

No no no no, supper is something you have before bed, like a hobnob with your glass of milk, or a fish supper one the way home from the pub.

[BobbyD]

So where does "high tea" fit into all this?

I never quite understood what it was. Perhaps it was something you had late afternoon, supplemented later in the evening with "supper" as a substitute for the proper evening meal we called "dinner".

Tea is an abbreviation of high tea, traditionally the main evening meal of the working class. It's yesteryear's sitcom staple scene, man returns home from work, hard put upon wife plonks down plate of food on the table and prepares for withering critique.

Its also an abbreviation of afternoon tea, which is the tea and scones style affair served around 4pm which keeps the upper classes going until dinner. Gardens and vicars optional.

High doesn't denote class or fanciness, it literally refers to the fact it is taken sitting 'up' at the table, not an archair or setee.

[servodude]

So where does "high tea" fit into all this?

I never quite understood what it was. Perhaps it was something you had late afternoon, supplemented later in the evening with "supper" as a substitute for the proper evening meal we called "dinner".

Tea is an abbreviation of high tea, traditionally the main evening meal of the working class. It's yesteryear's sitcom staple scene, man returns home from work, hard put upon wife plonks down plate of food on the table and prepares for withering critique.

Its also an abbreviation of afternoon tea, which is the tea and scones style affair served around 4pm which keeps the upper classes going until dinner. Gardens and vicars optional.

High doesn't denote class or fanciness, it literally refers to the fact it is taken sitting 'up' at the table, not an archair or setee.

"Tea is. .. "

Right let's stop it there...
... are we really going to claim a unique and specific derivation for the word "tea" in English?

[tjh290633]

I recall, when checking out from the Oberoi Grand in Calcutta (as it was then), noticing a sign that said:

"Tiffin will be served on the mezzanine floor at 4pm daily".

Had we seen it earlier we would surely have partaken

Is afternoon tea a relic from the Raj having Tiffin, or vice versa?

TJH

[Nimrod103]

In this case Bhang Lassi + trimmings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnEiUoSVr_s 'How to Get High in India... Legally (Bhang Lassi)'.

Ah yes, you have brought back memories of about 16 years ago. It's also known as 'Lord Siva's Drink'. It is drunk at the Holi festival, when the police turn a blind eye to a lot of things, and the law abiding tend to stay off the streets. While living in Delhi a friend offered me a glass, and I foolishly said it had no effect, so he offered me another. While finishing the second, it hit me like an express train. I spent the next hour hunched up in a corner, sort of aware of what was going on around me, but in slow motion. It felt like 6 hours had passed. Somehow they got me home and put me to bed, where I slept for 24 hours solid.

I believe the Indian authorities try to discourage it, because too many young men launch themselves from balconies believing they can fly.

[BobbyD]

Tea is an abbreviation of high tea, traditionally the main evening meal of the working class. It's yesteryear's sitcom staple scene, man returns home from work, hard put upon wife plonks down plate of food on the table and prepares for withering critique.

Its also an abbreviation of afternoon tea, which is the tea and scones style affair served around 4pm which keeps the upper classes going until dinner. Gardens and vicars optional.

High doesn't denote class or fanciness, it literally refers to the fact it is taken sitting 'up' at the table, not an archair or setee.

"Tea is. .. "

Right let's stop it there...
... are we really going to claim a unique and specific derivation for the word "tea" in English?

The problem is that the derivation isn't unique.

The word may not originate in the English language, but it's assimilation was very successful and it's been used to describe a meal including the drinking of tea for nigh on 3 hundred years.

Over that time being British there was a need to differentiate between the meals of the posh and the commoners, as there could be no chance of it being misunderstood that they lived in the same world as each other.

Hence afternoon tea and high tea. However since the British are also notoriously lazy and unproductive, and language being what language is, they were both abbreviated back to 'tea'. Hence the common confusion over which meal 'tea' refers to.

Dinner has a similar issue, but people seem less vexed by it.