Green Electricity

[JohnB]

Of course without intervention all energy producers will charge what they can, so renewable companies are raking it in.

So we have Russia making more money from gas than ever because the boycott is not being honoured by China and India. EDF turning off nuclear power stations, Tories refusing permission for solar and wind farms, greenwashing from companies, the energy companies pushing for a loan system that will guarantee their income for a decade and the rest of the economy facing a slump like 1974. And motorway blockers have made Insulate Britain a dirty word.

Is anyone competent in control anywhere?

[mc2fool]

If only. Basically the price of electricity is driven by the marginal cost, i.e. the cost of producing the "last" bit, and that's by gas.

See explanation at: https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/why-does-t ... enewables/

I don't buy any of that. Just because renewable energy generators can charge world prices for their leccy, this does not mean they have to.

Did you read the linked to article? It's not just renewable energy generators, it's all generators below and up to the marginal cost of the last KW - renewables, nukes, coal, gas - and they're not charging "world" prices but the marginal cost of the last KW.

The generators are all profit making, there is a wholesale market for electricity and green/nuke/coal/gas/etc generated electrons are indistinguishable from each other.

So if you were the owner of, say, a wind turbine and the market was bidding £X for electricity you'd say, no, I don't want to sell it for £X, I'll sell it for a fifth of that instead?

Given the UK still mines 50% of its own gas, I don't accept there is any credible reason to raise the price to domestic consumers or industry of the proportion of the gas we use from our own North Sea wells at least.

"The UK" doesn't mine anything. Private profit making companies "mine" gas in UK territorial waters and there is a wholesale market for it. See above.

[Mike4]

Of course without intervention all energy producers will charge what they can, so renewable companies are raking it in.

So we have Russia making more money from gas than ever because the boycott is not being honoured by China and India. EDF turning off nuclear power stations, Tories refusing permission for solar and wind farms, greenwashing from companies, the energy companies pushing for a loan system that will guarantee their income for a decade and the rest of the economy facing a slump like 1974. And motorway blockers have made Insulate Britain a dirty word.

Is anyone competent in control anywhere?

I'm surprised you need to ask.

Not since Churchill, or arguably Thatcher have we had a competent government.

Ever since Thatcher each successive government seems to have been progressively more incompetent than the last, and I see no sign of this process changing in the future. We are gonna get a Truss/Sunak administration next Gawd help us, and once they've ckufed it up some more we'll be getting Starmer et al. Jeez!!

[servodude]

The UK" doesn't mine anything. Private profit making companies "mine" gas in UK territorial waters and there is a wholesale market for it

Who owns it in the ground?
And who controls how those that mine it get it?

[mc2fool]

Another aspect to greenwashing is this concept of of a business promoting itself as being 'carbon neutral', as if that is something positive.

In its most basic form AIUI, it means if you are going to start a process that issues new carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, you plant a tree to gobble up the same amount of CO2 so your impact is 'net zero'.

You haven't done anything to improve the situation, just not made it worse. Which is a Good Thing, but it isn't actually helping.

How is being carbon neutral greenwashing and not something positive? You do know that the global goal is for the world to become carbon neutral by 2050? If everyone/everything became carbon neutral (by whatever means) that would not only be actually helping but solve the entire problem (well, that specific problem at least ).

Or is your view that the only companies that should be able to call themselves green are ones that take CO2 out of the atmosphere?

[mc2fool]

The UK" doesn't mine anything. Private profit making companies "mine" gas in UK territorial waters and there is a wholesale market for it

Who owns it in the ground?
And who controls how those that mine it get it?

"The UK" to both questions, but the UK doesn't control what those that mine it do with it or who they sell it to or for how much once they get it out of the ground. It only controls how much tax they pay for extracting it.

[Lootman]

Who owns it in the ground?
And who controls how those that mine it get it?

"The UK" to both questions, but the UK doesn't control what those that mine it do with it or who they sell it to or for how much once they get it out of the ground. It only controls how much tax they pay for extracting it.

Yes, I always think it is odd when people talk about "British" oil or gas. It actually belongs to the producers who spend billions to extract it. The government just gets money from licenses, which is a bit of a racket. And tax of course as with anything else.

Nor does it belong to Scotland, as Nicola would have us believe.

[mc2fool]

There are some major electricity suppliers who claimed that they are green energy suppliers. Since there have been no substantial changes to the costs of generating renewable (green) electricity, does this mean that their customers will not be affected by price increases? If not, why not? The nice little renewable green electrons are still being generated by wind, solar and nuclear. None of which use gas or oil.

That's a very good point. My Scottish Power bill says my electric (and I am all electric) comes from 100% renewable energy. Why is my electricity bill being used to subsidise others?

It isn't subsidising others, it's giving stonking profits to the renewable generators (and others lower down the merit order than the marginal cost of the final KW). https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.p ... 22#p525322

[servodude]

Who owns it in the ground?
And who controls how those that mine it get it?

"The UK" to both questions, but the UK doesn't control what those that mine it do with it or who they sell it to or for how much once they get it out of the ground. It only controls how much tax they pay for extracting it.

By design currently yes

And "The UK" could change that.

Depends on how "The UK" regard/respect their citizens I suppose?

There's an argument that says "The UK" are their citizens; which means it's your gas in the ground, being extracted by companies you are allowing to sell it back to you without any regard for your needs.

"The UK" could do e.g. what Western Australia do regards gas (and mandate a proportion for local use).

Or they could just say "this is how it is" and watch folk and businesses go bankrupt

[mc2fool]

"The UK" to both questions, but the UK doesn't control what those that mine it do with it or who they sell it to or for how much once they get it out of the ground. It only controls how much tax they pay for extracting it.

By design currently yes

And "The UK" could change that.

Depends on how "The UK" regard/respect their citizens I suppose?

There's an argument that says "The UK" are their citizens; which means it's your gas in the ground, being extracted by companies you are allowing to sell it back to you without any regard for your needs.

"The UK" could do e.g. what Western Australia do regards gas (and mandate a proportion for local use).

Or they could just say "this is how it is" and watch folk and businesses go bankrupt

Well, as always there are nuances and what you say isn't necessarily a given, even with the current setup.

I agree that ""The UK" are their citizens; which means it's your gas in the ground", and, of course, we have an elected govt that (supposedly) represents the interests of the citizens.

One way of doing that would be to tax the companies extracting and selling it and to use those proceeds to help folk and businesses avoid going bankrupt. I do believe some politicians are advocating exactly that.

Of course, as you say, there are other ways too.

I sometimes wonder why we don't take the same approach with other irreplaceable resources, e.g. Portland stone....

BTW, regarding "what Western Australia do regards gas (and mandate a proportion for local use)":

"The policy seeks to make gas equivalent to 15% of exports available for WA consumers.
:
Prices and contracts for domestic gas will be determined by the market."

https://www.wa.gov.au/government/public ... gas-policy

[AF62]

All electricity at every moment in time to every consumer being 'green', probably not. But overall it is as all the electricity they sell has to be backed by a REGO (Renewable Energy Guarantee of Origin) provided by the generators of renewable electricity themselves.

But that is greenwash because it has no effect at all on how much green energy is produced or what share green energy is of the total generated. It is simply a purely notional allocation of for example a wind farm's output. To the extent that any resources are consumed in administrating this REGO rubbish it has a negative net effect!

Of course it has an effect on how much ‘green’ energy is produced!

You choose an energy company that only supplies ‘green’ electricity then they have to buy ‘green’ electricity supported by REGOs. They have no option not to.

That means as a potential investor in a ‘green’ electricity generator you know there is a future market for your product as that supplier and all the others boasting of their ‘green’ credentials are not going to stop taking on customers if no new ‘green’ electricity was coming to market and more and more consumers will be choosing ‘green’ electricity suppliers.

[servodude]

BTW, regarding "what Western Australia do regards gas (and mandate a proportion for local use)":

"The policy seeks to make gas equivalent to 15% of exports available for WA consumers.
:
Prices and contracts for domestic gas will be determined by the market."

https://www.wa.gov.au/government/public ... gas-policy

Well they're not communists (unlike most of their customers).

The reservation just acts to suppress or rein in the local market.

From a recent article Call for gas reservation policy on east coast of Australia as energy prices soar

On the east coast, spot prices for gas have risen by a staggering 529 per cent across two years, from an average of $4.83 a gigajoule on May 1, 2020, to around $30.38 this month, Gas Trading Australia data shows.

In comparison, price increases in WA have been more modest, rising by around 160 per cent, from an average $2.13 a gigajoule on May 1, 2020, to around $5.55 forecast for June 2022.

Doesn't stop it fluctuating, doesn't stop there being a market, does take the sting out a bit.