Another Useless Map - How Long Does it Take to Learn a Countries Language

[scotia]

Many years ago, a student was given a placement (as part of his Scottish degree course) at Philips (a Dutch firm) in Germany,. The student struggled with the compulsory course in German that he had to pass before the placement. But to his delight, when he arrived in Germany, he found that his co-workers spoke English. Apparently Philips felt that they couldn't impose Dutch on their employees, but they didn't see any reason why they should use German (shades of WW2?), so English was the adopted lingua franca among the professional staff.

[mc2fool]

A Dutch colleague told me a new neighbour moved in next door. He was from a different region. The two could not understand each other’s Dutch, so they could only communicate in English. I didn’t even know Dutch had accents. Let alone incomprehensible ones. Wouldn’t have thought the country was big enough.

I am reminded of an anecdote an American friend told of his first ever trip to the Netherlands. He was in Amsterdam and passed by a street cleaner who smiled and said something to him, to which my friend said, slowly, "Sorry, I don't understand, do you speak English?" and the street cleaner instantly replied, "Yes, of course I speak English -- I'm Dutch!".

The matter of regional accents and dialects makes learning any language more problematic. I've worked with lots of non-native English speakers and got into the habit long ago of speaking "international" English, but I remember one project in particular, in rural central Italy, which was all non-native English speakers except for me and the group coordinator, who was a young Brummie woman with accent to match and speech consisting almost totally of colloquialisms, such that whenever she told the group anything they'd all turn to look at me for a translation from her English to an English they understood!

[bungeejumper]

I remember one project in particular, in rural central Italy, which was all non-native English speakers except for me and the group coordinator, who was a young Brummie woman with accent to match and speech consisting almost totally of colloquialisms, such that whenever she told the group anything they'd all turn to look at me for a translation from her English to an English they understood!

The accent and dialogue problem works the other way, of course. Plenty of European places have thick accents and mannerisms that seem almost deliberately designed to be incomprehensible to outsiders. Including their own compatriots!

Not least, Germany, where the further south, you go the more slurred and lazy the words become. (Lots of ssschww sounds going on down there.) Or the Berliner accent, which was what I brought back from my student days there. (A bit like thick scouse, it makes a Rhinelander wince. ) But then, Germany was an agglomeration of thirty-odd little principalities in Bismarck's day. so maybe that wasn't so surprising. That's why most Germans these days can switch into Hochdeutsch ("Standard German") whenever required. The country couldn't really function without it!

Plenty more like that in south-western France, where the collision of French and Catalan cultures produces some very peculiar pronunciations which would make any Parisian scratch his head. And the same, I'm sure, in every other European country?

BJ

[UncleEbenezer]

I remember one project in particular, in rural central Italy, which was all non-native English speakers except for me and the group coordinator, who was a young Brummie woman with accent to match and speech consisting almost totally of colloquialisms, such that whenever she told the group anything they'd all turn to look at me for a translation from her English to an English they understood!

You must've been on the main tourist circuit (or on business). Once you're off it, few of them speak english at all.

The accent and dialogue problem works the other way, of course. Plenty of European places have thick accents and mannerisms that seem almost deliberately designed to be incomprehensible to outsiders. Including their own compatriots!

Indeed. Reminds me of climbing ambitious (for me) Alpine peaks in the Monte Rosa region with a guide. Not booked, just turn up on the day and go with others who do the same. So there was me, two Germans (also tourists), and a Swiss guide. Speaking German, I was fine with the Germans, but none of us could understand the guide when he lapsed into local dialect. Apparently even other Swiss struggle with the Walise dialect.

Plenty more like that in south-western France, where the collision of French and Catalan cultures produces some very peculiar pronunciations which would make any Parisian scratch his head. And the same, I'm sure, in every other European country?

BJ

Italian seems to be a slightly interesting case. Italy is historically much more fragmented than Blighty, and had lots of regional variants. Then came unification in the Risorgimento, and a "standard Italian" emerged, predominantly from what was historically Florentine. It seems that the whole peninsula then made efforts to adopt it, judging from the fact that I never encountered a regional dialect half as incomprehensible as a heavy Geordie or a full Barnsley.

[mc2fool]

I remember one project in particular, in rural central Italy, which was all non-native English speakers except for me and the group coordinator, who was a young Brummie woman with accent to match and speech consisting almost totally of colloquialisms, such that whenever she told the group anything they'd all turn to look at me for a translation from her English to an English they understood!

You must've been on the main tourist circuit (or on business). Once you're off it, few of them speak english at all.

Far from any tourist circuit, but the group was very international, with no local Italians, who, indeed, didn't speak any English -- and some of them hardly Italian either!

One day I was out on a walk with the two Italians that were in the group, one from Calabria and the other from Veneto, who both (aside from being bilingual) spoke clear "national" Italian and I could understand quite well (well, as much as my limited Italian allowed at least), and we came across a shepherd, who we stopped and chatted to for a few minutes. I struggled with understanding him and as we walked away I said to the two Italians that I'd only understood a third of what the shephard was saying -- and they both said "Me too"! He apparently had a thick and very local accent.

Mind you, I've had the same in England. Many years ago I had a friend who came from somewhere rural in Norfolk (can't remember exactly where). His English was clear and unaccented but when he took me to visit his home village for a weekend I often had to get him to translate what locals were saying....