The Lemon Fool

BullDog wrote:PS - I just re read your message. If Shell aren't getting the data from your smart meters, Bright can't either. It's the same data stream as the supplier that Bright shows.

I wasn't sure whether the app connected to the meter(s), or to the supplier. So if it's the latter then it's no good to me, for now.

Scott.

swill453 wrote:

BullDog wrote:PS - I just re read your message. If Shell aren't getting the data from your smart meters, Bright can't either. It's the same data stream as the supplier that Bright shows.

I wasn't sure whether the app connected to the meter(s), or to the supplier. So if it's the latter then it's no good to me, for now.

Scott.

AIUI, Bright taps into the data between the meter and the supplier.

Well, I have been invited by Octopus Energy to reduce my energy use tomorrow between 17.30 and 18.30. Since that's after my evening meal and there's a light and a TV in use with not much else, reducing consumption could be a challenge. But I'll give it a go.

BullDog wrote:Well, I have been invited by Octopus Energy to reduce my energy use tomorrow between 17.30 and 18.30. Since that's after my evening meal and there's a light and a TV in use with not much else, reducing consumption could be a challenge. But I'll give it a go.

If there's no waste to save, that kind of 'challenge' could be a Bad Idea.

Trouble is, when the novelty wears off, you'll be back to normal. Meanwhile you've fed potentially-misleading data into Octopus's planning statistics.

Of course if you do have waste to save, then it's a Good Thing. And hopefully exercises like that will prompt a lot of people to think through their waste.

UncleEbenezer wrote:

BullDog wrote:Well, I have been invited by Octopus Energy to reduce my energy use tomorrow between 17.30 and 18.30. Since that's after my evening meal and there's a light and a TV in use with not much else, reducing consumption could be a challenge. But I'll give it a go.

If there's no waste to save, that kind of 'challenge' could be a Bad Idea.

Trouble is, when the novelty wears off, you'll be back to normal. Meanwhile you've fed potentially-misleading data into Octopus's planning statistics.

Of course if you do have waste to save, then it's a Good Thing. And hopefully exercises like that will prompt a lot of people to think through their waste.

The purpose of the trial isn’t to show that people can reduce consumption, but that they can move their consumption.

The concern is that the grid may not be able to cope with peaks in demand, but if you can ‘smear’ that demand over a longer time period then it can.

So although Bulldog has nothing to move in that time period, others who may have been cooking their dinner, running the dishwasher or washing machine, etc. will do it before or after that time slot so spreading the demand and reducing the peak.

AF62 wrote:

UncleEbenezer wrote: If there's no waste to save, that kind of 'challenge' could be a Bad Idea.

Trouble is, when the novelty wears off, you'll be back to normal. Meanwhile you've fed potentially-misleading data into Octopus's planning statistics.

Of course if you do have waste to save, then it's a Good Thing. And hopefully exercises like that will prompt a lot of people to think through their waste.

The purpose of the trial isn’t to show that people can reduce consumption, but that they can move their consumption.

The concern is that the grid may not be able to cope with peaks in demand, but if you can ‘smear’ that demand over a longer time period then it can.

So although Bulldog has nothing to move in that time period, others who may have been cooking their dinner, running the dishwasher or washing machine, etc. will do it before or after that time slot so spreading the demand and reducing the peak.

Yes its softening up Octopus customers with smart meters for surge pricing. Gently get people used to the concept of considering when to use high power appliances and in particular, getting them to identify which appliances they are so when surge pricing comes in, the customers know how to manage their consumption to keep the cost down.

Most people are utterly clueless about which appliances guzzle power and which sip it meagrely. We know this from the BBC phone-in programmes where callers are obsessing about charging their laptops and phones at the office instead of home, and unplugging the telly from the wall to make the LED go out whilst ignoring the dishwasher, washing machine tumble dryer they run twice a day each.

AF62 wrote:

UncleEbenezer wrote: If there's no waste to save, that kind of 'challenge' could be a Bad Idea.

Trouble is, when the novelty wears off, you'll be back to normal. Meanwhile you've fed potentially-misleading data into Octopus's planning statistics.

Of course if you do have waste to save, then it's a Good Thing. And hopefully exercises like that will prompt a lot of people to think through their waste.

The purpose of the trial isn’t to show that people can reduce consumption, but that they can move their consumption.

The concern is that the grid may not be able to cope with peaks in demand, but if you can ‘smear’ that demand over a longer time period then it can.

So although Bulldog has nothing to move in that time period, others who may have been cooking their dinner, running the dishwasher or washing machine, etc. will do it before or after that time slot so spreading the demand and reducing the peak.

"Smear" is a good way of putting it - reminds me of my Gonkulator

It would be interesting to see what kind of coverage these trial schemes have.

Way back in time, at a graduate recruitment fair, this dude had his ear chewed off by an old codger at one stall who kept trying to re-explain load balancing in different ways, mostly using kettles though, despite the point being immediately obvious. (The guys at the stall next to him, who viewed the fair as a "jolly" and by this point were quite... , found this really amusing and were looking for a control guy to join their servo dept but that's a different story).

The key thing being that if enough people do a small thing it mounts up in aggregation.

It's really interesting to see this concept being investigated (and possibly commercialised) in the general domestic space. It's about ten years since I first worked on automated demand response systems to allow commercial energy consumers to cede control of their supply in return for reduced tariffs and captial investment (this was in California and based around large scale irrigation pumping).

Actually, I thought it a rather good excuse to have my evening meal out this evening. Then my TV and reading lamp that are usually lit between 17.30 and 18.30 will be switched off. Not a huge energy saving. But if a million people all do that?

I can't do much about my dishwasher, washing machine etc.... they are already timeshifted to the overnight off peak tariff.

Mike4 wrote:Yes its softening up Octopus customers with smart meters for surge pricing. Gently get people used to the concept of considering when to use high power appliances and in particular, getting them to identify which appliances they are so when surge pricing comes in, the customers know how to manage their consumption to keep the cost down.

Do you actually think that those on dumb meters will fare better in the future?

My prediction would not be surge pricing, where there is a low standard price and a high surge price, but for non-peak discounting where there is a high standard price and lower prices during non-peak demand.

However those with dumb meters would only have the high standard price 24/7 and wouldn't be able to access the lower discounted prices.

Mike4 wrote:Most people are utterly clueless about which appliances guzzle power and which sip it meagrely. We know this from the BBC phone-in programmes where callers are obsessing about charging their laptops and phones at the office instead of home, and unplugging the telly from the wall to make the LED go out whilst ignoring the dishwasher, washing machine tumble dryer they run twice a day each.

Not only that they are utterly clueless about things like thermostats in ovens, with the dumb journalists simply taking the max energy demand of an oven and multiplying it by the number of hours it used to say it will cost £x to cook a meal.

servodude wrote:It would be interesting to see what kind of coverage these trial schemes have.
...
The key thing being that if enough people do a small thing it mounts up in aggregation.

The problem I can see with the results of the trial is they are being conducted in a time of very high energy prices and when many don't have a lot of money, plus it is a 'new and shiny' thing to get involved with.

If it had been done when energy prices were far lower and people had more cash would there have been the interest - I doubt it, or rather I doubt it beyond the first one or two instances and then people got bored with the whole idea.

servodude wrote:It's really interesting to see this concept being investigated (and possibly commercialised) in the general domestic space. It's about ten years since I first worked on automated demand response systems to allow commercial energy consumers to cede control of their supply in return for reduced tariffs and captial investment (this was in California and based around large scale irrigation pumping).

It has made its way to the domestic consumer with the Octopus Inteligent tariff for EV users. Your car or charger needs to be 'smart' to be eligible for the tariff because it needs to tell Octopus how much charge your car needs and that it is plugged in, but if it is then you hand over control to Octopus to determine the exact time overnight that your car charges. You will have had a guaranteed certain number of hours charge overnight, but it might have been a bit here and a bit there depending on when there is surplus in the grid.

I'm trying to find out what the Economy 7 unit costs are with Octopus (Night, Day & Standing Charge) - anyone here have the info?

I've been on the Octopus website but it won't supply a quote or tariff details.

On a side issue, I recently moved from a British Gas standard variable rate to their Eco 7 tariff expecting to save money.



The benefits of moving to ECO7 were (for my usage) are quite small (the massive day rate increase for ECO7 negates a lot of the cheaper night rate savings). Hence i was wondereing if Octopus had better rates? Combined with BG's p poor customer service makes me want to move supplier.

Why there should be a difference in SC is also debatable!

Snorvey wrote:
As a matter of interest, my Scottish Power renewal (variable rate only offered) is SC 51.16p......Day 44.269p.....Night......11.457p.

I use roughly 75% of my energy on night rate (but I have made changes to that so it could be more on night rate)

That would save me £170 pa but it's a long cable to plug in from the Midlands. It's crazy that there should be such a discrepancy and we are dissuaded from shopping around.

I thought the charges varied depending on which area of the country you are in.
I'm with Octopus, I'm in Essex so my numbers may be of no use to you.
You don't say wether your charges include vat.

Standing charge: 37.385p
Day: 44.347p
Night: 14.893p
All inc' VAT

BullDog wrote:Actually, I thought it a rather good excuse to have my evening meal out this evening. Then my TV and reading lamp that are usually lit between 17.30 and 18.30 will be switched off. Not a huge energy saving. But if a million people all do that?

But that million extra people eating out ... quite some surge in demand from pubs & restaurants (if indeed they can cope)

I can't do much about my dishwasher, washing machine etc.... they are already timeshifted to the overnight off peak tariff.

Exactly. You're basically already doing what they want of you. As did I, when I was on Economy 7, and doubtless many of those on tariffs that reward it.

Anyway, you got the missive, thought through your usage. Primary mission accomplished.

richlist wrote:I thought the charges varied depending on which area of the country you are in.
I'm with Octopus, I'm in Essex so my numbers may be of no use to you.
You don't say wether your charges include vat.

Standing charge: 37.385p
Day: 44.347p
Night: 14.893p
All inc' VAT

sorry - the figures were inclusive of VAT.

richlist wrote:I thought the charges varied depending on which area of the country you are in.
I'm with Octopus, I'm in Essex so my numbers may be of no use to you.
You don't say wether your charges include vat.

Standing charge: 37.385p
Day: 44.347p
Night: 14.893p
All inc' VAT

I'd save £57 on your tariff...not a lot but better in my pocket than BG's! Snorvey has a good night rate ....

Last time I was idly reading though the FAQs on the EDF site, I noticed something intriguing. A question along the lines of "Can I keep my Economy 7 tariff if I get a Smart Meter?"

The answer was NO, curiously. No further explanation was given.

monabri wrote:I'm trying to find out what the Economy 7 unit costs are with Octopus (Night, Day & Standing Charge) - anyone here have the info?

I've been on the Octopus website but it won't supply a quote or tariff details.

Go to https://octopus.energy/tariffs/ and put your postcode in, and then click the 'filter' box and tick 'domestic' - the Economy 7 rate is shown in the Flexible Octopus October 2022 v1 tariff, along with the non-Economy 7 rate.

And it seems you can have a smart meter and Economy 7 with them - https://octopus.energy/help-and-faqs/ar ... installed/

Mike4 wrote:Last time I was idly reading though the FAQs on the EDF site, I noticed something intriguing. A question along the lines of "Can I keep my Economy 7 tariff if I get a Smart Meter?"

The answer was NO, curiously. No further explanation was given.

I'm with Octopus, I have economy 7 and I have 2 smart meters......1 electric & 1 for gas.

Yes, why not ?
The smart meter for the gas supply is a separate device from the smart meter for the electric supply.I
We have gas central heating.

Snorvey wrote:

richlist wrote:Yes, why not ?
The smart meter for the gas supply is a separate device from the smart meter for the electric supply.I
We have gas central heating.

I dont know. I always thought E7 was for folk who were all electric/storage heaters. Obviously I was wrong.

This was the case back in 1968, and I think my E7 is a hangover from when my hovel had those storage heaters. Nowadays I have oil heating and a multi-fuel log burner stove contraption.

Given that EDFs no longer publish lists of their tariffs, its hard to find out if E7 is still available or what the qualifications to get it might be.