NS&I index linked certificates
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- Lemon Quarter
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NS&I index linked certificates
I've just received the annual statements covering two of my index-linked certificates, showing what has been added for the past year. One is still on the RPI rate and the other was renewed after RPI had been dropped and is subject to CPI. There is a huge difference in what has been added to a similar value in each case. The percentage change in CPI is 0.64% and in RPI is 1.19% so £136.33 was added to £21,130.98 and £250.07 added to £20,856.12 for the index-linked return. plus tiny amounts of interest. I have to admit I don't understand how they arrive at the final figure c/f to the next year.
I also don't understand how CPI is so low and why there is so much difference between that and RPI. I don't think I shall roll over any more at that rate.
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I also don't understand how CPI is so low and why there is so much difference between that and RPI. I don't think I shall roll over any more at that rate.
.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Are you genuinely asking for a difference in the two or is that just an observation? It is complicated but explainable.Bouleversee wrote:I've just received the annual statements covering two of my index-linked certificates, showing what has been added for the past year. One is still on the RPI rate and the other was renewed after RPI had been dropped and is subject to CPI. There is a huge difference in what has been added to a similar value in each case. The percentage change in CPI is 0.64% and in RPI is 1.19% so £136.33 was added to £21,130.98 and £250.07 added to £20,856.12 for the index-linked return. plus tiny amounts of interest. I have to admit I don't understand how they arrive at the final figure c/f to the next year.
I also don't understand how CPI is so low and why there is so much difference between that and RPI. I don't think I shall roll over any more at that rate.
.
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Among other things, AIUI, willing to be corrected
RPI is arithmetic
and CPI is geometric hence almost always fiddled lower by default
eg items a and b start price 1p
after a year a is 0.8p and b is 1.25p
rpi ((0.8 + 1.25) / 2)*100 - 100 = (1.025)*100 - 100 = 102.5 - 100 = 2.5%
cpi (0.8 * 1.25) * 100 -100 = 100 - 100 = 0%
RPI is arithmetic
and CPI is geometric hence almost always fiddled lower by default
eg items a and b start price 1p
after a year a is 0.8p and b is 1.25p
rpi ((0.8 + 1.25) / 2)*100 - 100 = (1.025)*100 - 100 = 102.5 - 100 = 2.5%
cpi (0.8 * 1.25) * 100 -100 = 100 - 100 = 0%
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Dealtn:
I wasn't asking but would be interested to read your explanation.
Edit: Just trying to get my head round another post which was made while I was typing.
I wasn't asking but would be interested to read your explanation.
Edit: Just trying to get my head round another post which was made while I was typing.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Stonge -
I need some lunch before I tackle that.
I need some lunch before I tackle that.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
So buying one of a and one of b at the start would cost you 1p + 1p = 2pStonge wrote:Among other things, AIUI, willing to be corrected
RPI is arithmetic
and CPI is geometric hence almost always fiddled lower by default
eg items a and b start price 1p
after a year a is 0.8p and b is 1.25p
rpi ((0.8 + 1.25) / 2)*100 - 100 = (1.025)*100 - 100 = 102.5 - 100 = 2.5%
cpi (0.8 * 1.25) * 100 -100 = 100 - 100 = 0%
and doing so again after a year would cost you 0.8p + 1.25p = 2.05p
and, despite the "basket" now costing you 2.5% more than previously, CPI says there's been 0% inflation ?!?
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- Lemon Half
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Essentially yes.mc2fool wrote:So buying one of a and one of b at the start would cost you 1p + 1p = 2pStonge wrote:Among other things, AIUI, willing to be corrected
RPI is arithmetic
and CPI is geometric hence almost always fiddled lower by default
eg items a and b start price 1p
after a year a is 0.8p and b is 1.25p
rpi ((0.8 + 1.25) / 2)*100 - 100 = (1.025)*100 - 100 = 102.5 - 100 = 2.5%
cpi (0.8 * 1.25) * 100 -100 = 100 - 100 = 0%
and doing so again after a year would cost you 0.8p + 1.25p = 2.05p
and, despite the "basket" now costing you 2.5% more than previously, CPI says there's been 0% inflation ?!?
(And this really isn't the best Board for this, but is at least practical to the Board and product under discussion).
The reason is that it is taking into account that generally people buy more of something when it is cheaper than when it is expensive. If that's too difficult an economic concept then this will be tricky to get across.
So across an economy there will have been a general shift of expenditure such that in the second year more people are now buying the 0.8p item that used to cost 1p, having switched from the product that now costs 1.2p that also used to cost 1p.
The "basket" used to consist of 2 items, an item a and an item b. Because of the relative price moves the basket consists of (poor example given most products are finite) a bit more than 1 item a, and a bit less than 1 item b.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Sarcasm is unnecessary and unappreciated.dealtn wrote:The reason is that it is taking into account that generally people buy more of something when it is cheaper than when it is expensive. If that's too difficult an economic concept then this will be tricky to get across.
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the biggest difference between CPI and RPI house prices which are excluded from CPI and since house prices "only ever rise by more than inflation" RPI has been higher than CPI for many years?
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- Lemon Half
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
None of which was intended as sarcastic, either to you or anyone else who might be interested. I was consciously aware this wasn't the Economics Board.mc2fool wrote:Sarcasm is unnecessary and unappreciated.dealtn wrote:The reason is that it is taking into account that generally people buy more of something when it is cheaper than when it is expensive. If that's too difficult an economic concept then this will be tricky to get across.
You appeared to want to have a genuine explanation of why it might still be 0%, and wanted an explanation. If not, or you prefer such assistance to come from someone else or in a different form then that will be more likely going forward.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Not really. There is also CPIH which contains a housing costs and it is significantly different to RPI.Gan020 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the biggest difference between CPI and RPI house prices which are excluded from CPI and since house prices "only ever rise by more than inflation" RPI has been higher than CPI for many years?
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
I am not going to bother my head with those calculations. So far as figures are concerned, I meant the final figure added for the year didn't seem to tally with the CPI change plus the tiny amount of interest added. Otherwise, I am only interested in the concept. Leaving out houses, what is the essential difference between CPI and RPI? Why the need for change other than to fleece people? I feel sure that most things ordinary people buy have gone up more than 0.64%. Food and cleaning products have gone up far more than that, especially if you take into account the blatantly reduced size/quantity of many items. I say blatant because they often use the same package and just reduce the contents ant then charge as much as or more than before. I haven't bought any clothes or furnishings for some time but I am horrified by the prices of some items I see advertised in the press and wonder who on earth buys them. I am shocked by the price of a tin of paint, for instance. How people on basic wages cope is beyond me, though I don't know what all the multiple benefits one is entitled to then adds up to.
Are defined benefit pension schemes linked to RPI or CPI? I know it used to be the former.
Are defined benefit pension schemes linked to RPI or CPI? I know it used to be the former.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
This discussion has been going on for many, many decades, and I vaguely remember in the 1980s, some independent inflation figures calculated by various institutions, though can't remember which. When working in France, 89-98, people used to joke about this and how the government would choose to include things that had gone down in price, merely to keep the official rate as low as possible. Back in the UK, we've had the RPI, CPI CPIH, but one has the impression that after so many years, rather than keeping things simple, the calculations are made even more difficult to understand. Hmm, wonder why?Bouleversee wrote:I am not going to bother my head with those calculations. So far as figures are concerned, I meant the final figure added for the year didn't seem to tally with the CPI change plus the tiny amount of interest added. Otherwise, I am only interested in the concept. Leaving out houses, what is the essential difference between CPI and RPI? Why the need for change other than to fleece people? I feel sure that most things ordinary people buy have gone up more than 0.64%. Food and cleaning products have gone up far more than that, especially if you take into account the blatantly reduced size/quantity of many items. I say blatant because they often use the same package and just reduce the contents ant then charge as much as or more than before. I haven't bought any clothes or furnishings for some time but I am horrified by the prices of some items I see advertised in the press and wonder who on earth buys them. I am shocked by the price of a tin of paint, for instance. How people on basic wages cope is beyond me, though I don't know what all the multiple benefits one is entitled to then adds up to.
Are defined benefit pension schemes linked to RPI or CPI? I know it used to be the former.
![Cool 8-)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Steve
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Why I was asking about final salary schemes is because that is what MPs still have. I wonder at what rate they are indexed. I shall see if I can find out.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
- not always true - Giffen goods!dealtn wrote:
The reason is that it is taking into account that generally people buy more of something when it is cheaper than when it is expensive. If that's too difficult an economic concept then this will be tricky to get across
T7 (pedantically)
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
Am pleased to see that from 2011 the indexation of MPs final salary pensions will be at CPI rate rather than RPI.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
My wife's (paltry) civil service pension is increasing by 0.5% next year.Bouleversee wrote:Why I was asking about final salary schemes is because that is what MPs still have. I wonder at what rate they are indexed. I shall see if I can find out.
Scott.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
I agree that that is terrible (not much better than my fixed rate annuity) but it is right that it is on the same basis as other defined benefit schemes and it's better than some interest rates on savings and probably better than the income from defined contribution pensions which might well have gone down this year; my dividend income certainly has. I don't understand why it's not at the same rate as NS&I CPI indexation, however. If MPs pensions are indexed acc. to CPI, surely civil servants' should be as well. My daughter is a civil servant and will be getting one in due course. I'll ask her. No point in complaining the way things are at present. Any secure income is a boon. It's just the pretence that bothers me.
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
0.5% is the CPI increase for September 2019 - September 2020, which forms the basis for public service pension increases from April 2021.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ier-tables
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ier-tables
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: NS&I index linked certificates
That is because the renewal notice has added the increase 'one month short'. So for a 3 year term, the increase is 2 years 11 months as that is the latest figures available when the renewal was printed.Bouleversee wrote: So far as figures are concerned, I meant the final figure added for the year didn't seem to tally with the CPI change plus the tiny amount of interest added.
Using my renewal that I have received for a 3 year, it states just underneath the column of details (abridged as I can't copy it !)
*The estimated value is based on the RPI for Dec 2020 published in Jan 2021. The final value of your Certificate will be calculated using the RPI figure at the time it matures.
The next RPI will be published on Wednesday 17 February, and you will find it here when released about half way down the page.
The January 2018 RPI was 276.0 so when the Jan 2021 figure is released this will give you the 3 year increase (plus the 0.01%). If you need RPI for other dates, you will find the historic table here
Edit: typo